The Great Tragedy of the Buffy HD Remaster (1 Viewer)

[Wayne_j]

I just came across this great video describing how badly the remastering of the Buffy the Vampire Slayer TV series has been done. I have been avoiding watching the show on Netflix because they are all 16x9 while Joss Whedon explicitly said that they should be seen in 4x3.

Color grading has been completely changed for no apparent reason, heavy DNR has been applied so everyone looks like Wax statues, Crew members are seen at the end of the screen, and the show in general has been very badly cropped so the shots look very awkward.

 

[Bryan^H]

I sampled a few episodes on HULU recently. For one of the greatest tv shows ever made, this has been treated horrendously. It just looks like a hatchet job of a remastering. Everything is wrong. The standard definition DVD's are the only way to watch I guess.

 

[Lord Dalek]

This is punishment for y'allz complaining about The X-Files remaster.

 

[JohnRice]

This is punishment for y'allz complaining about The X-Files remaster.

I also recall a LOT of people losing their minds over the Star Trek: TNG Blu-Rays retaining the original AR.

 

[TravisR]

This is punishment for y'allz complaining about The X-Files remaster.

Sorry.

 

[ChristopherG]

What's wrong with the 16:9 versions?

 

[Wayne_j]

Besides for being against the wishes of the creators, the insane amounts of HDR and bad color correction come to mind.

 

[JQuintana]

I'm in the mindset I guess that if it's watchable and doesn't look like say a VHS copy of a copy of a copy, then I can enjoy this, probably would enjoy more than seeing it in 4:3.

 

[Malcolm R]

Besides for being against the wishes of the creators, the insane amounts of HDR and bad color correction come to mind.

Not to mention if there are actual crew members now visible in the scene, as listed in post #1.

 

[Wayne_j]

Besides for being against the wishes of the creators, the insane amounts of HDR and bad color correction come to mind.

I meant DNR, not HDR.

 

[JohnRice]

Does anyone know if these are the syndicated versions? I know when I was looking into Friends, the Blu-Rays were made from the shorter syndicated versions, which had 2-4 minutes cut from each episode. They often cut a punchline that the entire episode had been leading up to. Plus, the extended episodes, which Buffy also had, were short versions to fit into a 30 minute slot.

 

[DaveF]

What's wrong with the 16:9 versions?

It’s always about preserving OAR. Pan and Scan in the VHS and early DVD days was bad. Window Boxing and stretching in the widescreen days is just as bad.

The From the HTF Mission Statement:

(https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/help/Mission_Statement/)
We the members of the forum are interested in the film product to be recorded and reproduced as closely as possible to the way the original creator(s) of that particular film intended.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

I'm in the mindset I guess that if it's watchable and doesn't look like say a VHS copy of a copy of a copy, then I can enjoy this, probably would enjoy more than seeing it in 4:3.

A VHS copy of the SD master would actually be preferable to these. There are all sorts of things outside with the 4x3 crop that were never meant to be seen, but what's worse is the lighting. The original run of the show had a very specific look, primarily set at night in darkness. The HD remaster completely destroys those lighting choices, and as a result changes the mood of scenes, and even whole episodes.

It's probably even less likely to happen now that Disney owns 20th Century Fox television, but I'd love for them to go back and do fresh scans and then let Joss Whedon oversee proper 4x3 1080p high definition versions of the episodes. The special effects that would need to be redone, while fairly plentiful, are a piece of cake by today's standards.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

For seasons 1-3, 4x3 is absolutely the correct aspect ratio - the only proper choice for those episodes.

It gets a little trickier for seasons 4-7. On the one hand, Joss Whedon is on record that the show was intended for a 4x3 exhibition, and it's certainly understandable why that ratio is preferred by many fans. But on the other hand, when work on season 4 was beginning, Whedon was informed that the show was going to be distributed in the 16x9 ratio in international territories. So, from seasons 4-7, while 4x3 was the primary framing, the showrunners were protecting for 16x9, and were well aware that people outside of the U.S. were viewing the show in 16x9.

For me, when I rewatched the show most recently (back around 2011 or 2012), I watched seasons 1-3 on DVD to preserve the 4x3 framing, but watched season 4-7 streaming - at that point in time, the 16x9 SD masters that aired internationally were available on Netflix. For the most part, I had no issue with the wider framing and often preferred that to the black bars. The extra information revealed on the sides was mostly dead space, but extra views of the sets wound up being slightly more immersive than the black bars were.

So I think there is a case to be made for 16x9 for the later seasons not being a total abomination. But not for the earlier ones.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

It gets a little trickier for seasons 4-7. On the one hand, Joss Whedon is on record that the show was intended for a 4x3 exhibition, and it's certainly understandable why that ratio is preferred by many fans. But on the other hand, when work on season 4 was beginning, Whedon was informed that the show was going to be distributed in the 16x9 ratio in international territories. So, from seasons 4-7, while 4x3 was the primary framing, the showrunners were protecting for 16x9, and were well aware that people outside of the U.S. were viewing the show in 16x9.

"Less obviously compromised" is not the same as "correct".

"Angel" framed for 16x9 the whole way through, even the seasons that initially aired in 4x3. "Buffy" framed for 4x3 the whole way through, even the seasons protected for 16x9.

 

[Wayne_j]

Only one episode was meant to be seen in 16x9. Once More With Feeling.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

"Less obviously compromised" is not the same as "correct".

True, but then we start getting into the debate of, who is the true author of the work, and who has the final say? You could make an argument, one that most people would accept, that Joss Whedon (and later on, Marni Noxon) were the showrunners, and their opinion that the later seasons were meant to be viewed in 4x3, is the only one that matters. At the least, it does carry a lot of weight.

But, to play devil's advocate: Joss Whedon and Marni Noxon don't own the Buffy series. The show is owned and was produced by Twentieth Television, and Whedon and Noxon were employees for hire. Their employer, Twentieth Television, informed them that Season 4-7 were going to be broadcast as 16x9 internationally, and were ordered to provide deliverables that matched that specification. That carries some weight too.

I'm not going to make the argument that 4x3 is the ideal way to watch the later seasons, and I have absolutely no issue with the statement that 4x3 is the showrunners preferred aspect ratio. But what I'm trying to say, at least to me, is a different kind of argument, that the 16x9 versions of season 4-7 are valid versions of the show. What I'm trying to say is that I don't see the 16x9 versions of season 4-7 as being revisionist, as that is how international viewers originally saw those seasons. Think of it like movies that have dual formats: as a recent example, "Avengers: Infinity War" has two aspect ratios: 2.40:1 for conventional theaters and home viewing, and 1.90:1 for IMAX theaters. They're both correct. I prefer one more than the other, but that doesn't mean the other is wrong.

With these new Buffy remasters, I honestly believe the greater sin is the poor mastering job and the horrible cropping on seasons 1-3. That seasons 4-7 are in widescreen is less troubling to me than how badly they were remastered; I wish I still had access to the SD widescreen versions that Netflix used to stream. Given the choice between the new remastered versions and my old DVDs, I'll watch the DVDs, for all seasons.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

But, to play devil's advocate: Joss Whedon and Marni Noxon don't own the Buffy series. The show is owned and was produced by Twentieth Television, and Whedon and Noxon were employees for hire.

The same could be said of the vast majority of directors working within the studio system. Unless you're an independent filmmaker, you're an employee for hire. It doesn't mean that you don't have a firm artistic vision that should be respected.

Their employer, Twentieth Television, informed them that Season 4-7 were going to be broadcast as 16x9 internationally, and were ordered to provide deliverables that matched that specification. That carries some weight too.

It doesn't for me. You're right that they were ordered to provide deliverables that matched that specification, but that just means they protected the 16x9 area and made a certain amount of effort to make sure that crew members and boom mikes didn't make it into the frame. But they were still framing the show for 4x3. By definition, the extra picture information had to be dead space, because they knew most or all of domestic audiences would only be seeing what's in that 4x3 framing.

I realize I'm hitting this point really strong, probably to the point of overreaction, but it resurrects memories from a few years back, when some of the same people who were yelling about the importance of OAR on widescreen movies were happy to have 4x3 content cropped or opened up to fill their fancy new widescreen HDTVs. To me, a show framed for 4x3 being shown in 16x9 is just as bad as a Cinemascope film being shown in pan and scan "full frame" on VHS.

It's why I get so frustrated with IMAX making deals for exclusive versions of films with additional picture information. Within a certain allowable margin for error, there should be a definitive presentation of an artistic work. And all of these other things just muddy the waters.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I don’t think you’re overreacting at all, for what it’s worth. I think they’re really important points that you’re making and I don’t think anything I’m bringing up is even worth mentioning without it being established that Whedon and Co did intend for 4x3.

I think I could make a decent argument for why IMAX having a different ratio than the standard theater is okay. Probably not worth sidetracking Buffy over.

I do wish the priority at Fox had been to preserve the 4x3 framing in their HD update. I enjoyed the 16x9 SD versions the last time I saw the show, and it was a fun variation, but the idea of a 16x9 version of the entire series becoming the de facto default version for most viewers is really sad to me. And the loss of all of the darkness and shadow that gave the show’s world its atmosphere, that’s unforgivable.

When my wife and I got married, we consolidated our disc collections and gave away/sold/traded duplicate copies for titles we both had. We each had a set of Buffy and both of us felt it made more sense to keep one as a backup instead of giving it away - the show meant that much to both of us. After seeing what they’ve done with this HD version, I’m so glad we held on to both sets. They’re gonna have to go the distance, because I can’t imagine watching these HD tragedies for an entire series revisit.

 

[TJPC]

It’s always about preserving OAR. Pan and Scan in the VHS and early DVD days was bad. Window Boxing and stretching in the widescreen days is just as bad.

The From the HTF Mission Statement:

(https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/help/Mission_Statement/)
We the members of the forum are interested in the film product to be recorded and reproduced as closely as possible to the way the original creator(s) of that particular film intended.

This is why I am still seeking out and buying 3D Blu rays.