Carlo_M
Senior HTF Member
- Joined
- Oct 31, 1997
- Messages
- 13,392
Long time members here will know that I've been part of the community since 1997 (right after getting my first full time job my first big purchase was a DVD player as Los Angeles was one of the initial 7 test cities for the new technology). I loved going to the theaters. Living and working where I do, I've always had to rent so a "dedicated HT room" has never been in the cards, but aside from that, I daresay I've built a pretty respectable home theater in my living room. Despite that, I love going to the theaters, there is no recreating the all-encompassing large screen experience at places like the TCL Chinese Theater (dual laser IMAX!) or Westwood Village's Regency Village (aka "the Fox Theater") which is now a THX certified experience.
I bought my 65" LG C1 OLED last year and I can say visually it was a true light bulb moment for me, in terms of getting pure, true blacks. I loved it so much that I just put up with the lower overall brightness than the older FALD LED TVs I'd owned. When the C2 this year went on Black Friday deal, I jumped at the 77" version for which I paid nearly the same amount as I did for the smaller C1 last year (which now is in another room). It has better brightness output than the C1 to the point where, yes it's still less than LED TVs, but not to the point where I consider it a trade-off. It gets plenty bright for even daytime viewing for me (full disclosure I light-control my room so I never have a fully sunlit living room, those with bright rooms with large floor-to-ceiling windows may disagree with my assessment of the C2's brightness).
Despite making major improvements in my HT over the past 18 months (OLED, going from 5.1.2 to 7.2.4, upgrading a mish-mosh of speakers acquired over the past 10-15 years to the Definitive Tech Demand Series (D17s for the main, D5c and D9s for all surrounds) I still love going to the theaters, especially the ones with big screens with great projection and sound equipment (the aforementioned TCL Chinese and Village theaters are two of my local favorites). I was in the crowd on opening day of Avengers Endgame when the Russos "snuck" in (there were several rows cordoned off when I entered, which made me wonder why the theater did that) and the joy of audience reaction to every key moment of that movie ranks right up there with the Star Wars re-releases in the late 90s when audiences cheered with the intro of every main character...especially Han.
But one thing has been bothering me recently. None of the great theaters, not dual laser IMAX, not Dolby Cinema, not IMAX certified, get "pure blacks" like OLED does. And lesser digital projection systems (like those in standard multiplexes) give black levels like edge- and rear-lit LEDs (e.g. very, very dark grey). It's the nature of projecting onto a screen right? Some light hits the screen somewhere, and so an adjacent part of the screen that's meant to be black will have a little light reflectivity that can't be avoided. No part of a reflective screen can "turn off" like an OLED pixel. I've more than once, over the last year or so, walked out of a theater thinking "well I miss the black levels of my OLED, can't wait until this gets released on UHD". The most egregious was the third Fantastic Beasts movie, which was very dark, and which I saw in a multiplex standard theater, and saw no true blacks, only shades of gray. Sure enough, a few months later and the home release was superior in terms of black level playback on my C1/C2.
Which got me thinking. What's the "correct black level" nowadays? To put a boundary on the discussion, let's limit it to current/recent major studio films of which the majority are shot and edited digitally. I'm sure a different answer would be suitable for films shot on...film...and edited in the analog/physical domain.
So can we agree to the premise that the majority of current big budget films (and many/most? big budget streaming shows/series) are shot digitally and edited digitally? If so, in those editing rooms, where the editor(s) and director(s) are making their creative choices on the final product's look and feel (lighting, exposure, color timing, shadow detail, etc.) they are likely doing so using state-of-the-art, calibrated reference monitors for playback...which are capable of displaying the true blacks that OLEDs can recreate. Blacks which, by the very laws of physics of projecting light onto a reflective screen, cannot be recreated in a theater.
In this modern film/show workflow, the existential question I'm facing is: what is the proper black level? This very forum is dedicated to the Home Theater, and our attempt to recreate to the greatest extent possible, the theatrical experience at home. In the past, we knew it was a fool's errand, that for most of us making less than seven figure salaries, our HTs would always be a step (or several steps) behind the theatrical experience.
But now, with OLED true black levels coming closer to the studio reference monitors than what a projected image can deliver due to the laws of physics (even one with as good a system as the dual laser IMAX at the TCL Chinese main screen)...we may now have in our reach something that brings us closer to the "artist's intent" than even the theatrical presentation.
Final note: I still love going to theaters and will continue to do so. Please don't mistake this for a "my home theater is better than going to an actual theater" post. My intent is to generate thought and discussion about something which owning an OLED TV has made me realize: that I preferred the black level performance on my OLED to even the best theatrical projection I've been to. And then the necessary corollary: with modern shot-on-digital and/or edited-on-digital films, is this actual the correct black level as opposed to what we see in theaters?
Would love to hear your thoughts!
I bought my 65" LG C1 OLED last year and I can say visually it was a true light bulb moment for me, in terms of getting pure, true blacks. I loved it so much that I just put up with the lower overall brightness than the older FALD LED TVs I'd owned. When the C2 this year went on Black Friday deal, I jumped at the 77" version for which I paid nearly the same amount as I did for the smaller C1 last year (which now is in another room). It has better brightness output than the C1 to the point where, yes it's still less than LED TVs, but not to the point where I consider it a trade-off. It gets plenty bright for even daytime viewing for me (full disclosure I light-control my room so I never have a fully sunlit living room, those with bright rooms with large floor-to-ceiling windows may disagree with my assessment of the C2's brightness).
Despite making major improvements in my HT over the past 18 months (OLED, going from 5.1.2 to 7.2.4, upgrading a mish-mosh of speakers acquired over the past 10-15 years to the Definitive Tech Demand Series (D17s for the main, D5c and D9s for all surrounds) I still love going to the theaters, especially the ones with big screens with great projection and sound equipment (the aforementioned TCL Chinese and Village theaters are two of my local favorites). I was in the crowd on opening day of Avengers Endgame when the Russos "snuck" in (there were several rows cordoned off when I entered, which made me wonder why the theater did that) and the joy of audience reaction to every key moment of that movie ranks right up there with the Star Wars re-releases in the late 90s when audiences cheered with the intro of every main character...especially Han.
But one thing has been bothering me recently. None of the great theaters, not dual laser IMAX, not Dolby Cinema, not IMAX certified, get "pure blacks" like OLED does. And lesser digital projection systems (like those in standard multiplexes) give black levels like edge- and rear-lit LEDs (e.g. very, very dark grey). It's the nature of projecting onto a screen right? Some light hits the screen somewhere, and so an adjacent part of the screen that's meant to be black will have a little light reflectivity that can't be avoided. No part of a reflective screen can "turn off" like an OLED pixel. I've more than once, over the last year or so, walked out of a theater thinking "well I miss the black levels of my OLED, can't wait until this gets released on UHD". The most egregious was the third Fantastic Beasts movie, which was very dark, and which I saw in a multiplex standard theater, and saw no true blacks, only shades of gray. Sure enough, a few months later and the home release was superior in terms of black level playback on my C1/C2.
Which got me thinking. What's the "correct black level" nowadays? To put a boundary on the discussion, let's limit it to current/recent major studio films of which the majority are shot and edited digitally. I'm sure a different answer would be suitable for films shot on...film...and edited in the analog/physical domain.
So can we agree to the premise that the majority of current big budget films (and many/most? big budget streaming shows/series) are shot digitally and edited digitally? If so, in those editing rooms, where the editor(s) and director(s) are making their creative choices on the final product's look and feel (lighting, exposure, color timing, shadow detail, etc.) they are likely doing so using state-of-the-art, calibrated reference monitors for playback...which are capable of displaying the true blacks that OLEDs can recreate. Blacks which, by the very laws of physics of projecting light onto a reflective screen, cannot be recreated in a theater.
In this modern film/show workflow, the existential question I'm facing is: what is the proper black level? This very forum is dedicated to the Home Theater, and our attempt to recreate to the greatest extent possible, the theatrical experience at home. In the past, we knew it was a fool's errand, that for most of us making less than seven figure salaries, our HTs would always be a step (or several steps) behind the theatrical experience.
But now, with OLED true black levels coming closer to the studio reference monitors than what a projected image can deliver due to the laws of physics (even one with as good a system as the dual laser IMAX at the TCL Chinese main screen)...we may now have in our reach something that brings us closer to the "artist's intent" than even the theatrical presentation.
Final note: I still love going to theaters and will continue to do so. Please don't mistake this for a "my home theater is better than going to an actual theater" post. My intent is to generate thought and discussion about something which owning an OLED TV has made me realize: that I preferred the black level performance on my OLED to even the best theatrical projection I've been to. And then the necessary corollary: with modern shot-on-digital and/or edited-on-digital films, is this actual the correct black level as opposed to what we see in theaters?
Would love to hear your thoughts!
