UHD Review A Few Words About A few words about...™ - Once Upon a Time in the West -- in 4k UHD (1 Viewer)

[Walter Kittel]

Frankly, I still enjoy OUTITW more than any of the three Dollars trilogy films.

Not that anyone is asking; but I tend to go back and forth between The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly and Once Upon A Time in the West in terms of which film I enjoy more. ( Both films are in my top ten all time Westerns. )

I prefer Moriconne's score for TGTBTU, but the exploration of the shifting power dynamics in the Old West (and Henry Fonda's Frank) always bring me back to OUTITW (which I feel has the superior story line.)

- Walter.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

Frankly, I still enjoy OUTITW more than any of the three Dollars trilogy films. I'm looking forward to watching my 4K/UHD disc. Furthermore, Amazon Prime is my least favorite streaming service because I think Apple/iTunes, Disney+ and Vudu offer a superior streaming experience.

For me, it's a toss-up between OUTITW and TGTBATU as to which is my favorite spaghetti western.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Not that anyone is asking; but I tend to go back and forth between The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly and Once Upon A Time in the West in terms of which film I enjoy more. ( Both films are in my top ten all time Westerns. )

I prefer Moriconne's score for TGTBTU, but the exploration of the shifting power dynamics in the Old West (and Henry Fonda's Frank) always bring me back to OUTITW (which I feel has the superior story line.)

- Walter.

For me, it's a toss-up between OUTITW and TGTBATU as to which is my favorite spaghetti western.

Claudia Cardinale is the difference for me between those two movies. With a shoutout to Hank Fonda.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

Claudia Cardinale is the difference for me between those two movies. With a shoutout to Hank Fonda.

I cannot find any fault with that reasoning. Fonda does play one of the all-time great western villains, and Claudia Cardinale is terrific... and terrific to look at. As @Walter Kittel mentions, though, the score for TGTBATU is superb, and the dynamics between Eastwood, Van Cleef and Wallach are as good as it gets on the screen, IMO.

Both are terrific westerns by Leone.

 

[Bartman]

Frankly, I still enjoy OUTITW more than any of the three Dollars trilogy films. I'm looking forward to watching my 4K/UHD disc. Furthermore, Amazon Prime is my least favorite streaming service because I think Apple/iTunes, Disney+ and Vudu offer a superior streaming experience.

I realize Prime is suboptimal, I initially thought I was getting 4K (whopee!) but no. I assume the Scorcese / Film Foundation reference during the credits means it's the latest transfer? Please let us know what you think about the transfer.

 

[Robin9]

Please skip this comment if you don't like negative film reviews. I enjoyed the Dollars trilogy, TGTB&TU & westerns in general. I bought the DVD of OUTITW when it was released & watched it once (my first time seeing OUTITW), I was disappointed. It's an exercise in style over substance. It has the slimmest of stories (with a sudden big reveal right at the end) punctuated by gratuitous violence & death, misogyny, stereotypes & tons of filler all set to a whimsical score. Its saving grace being the production values & locations.
This morning I streamed from Prime in HD (supposedly the Martin Scorcese / Film Foundation transfer), my opinion of the film has not changed & the transfer is many shades of brown & some blue throughout, perhaps the UHD is better?

That's not far off my opinion. The saving grace for me is Claudia Cardinale. I've never upgraded from the DVD but I just might for this 4K disc.

 

[RBailey]

Still off topic and peripheral, but what is it with those shaggy dog titles? I was always fascinated by "Oh Dad, Poor Dad, Mama's Hung You in the Closet and I'm Feeling So Sad" with Rosalind Russell, Robert Morse and Jonathan Winters (if memory serves) after seeing it on TV as a youngster. I would love to see that again in some form or another!

OH DAD, POOR DAD is available to purchase on Amazon Prime. No rental...purchase only.

 

[Allansfirebird]

Anyone wanna start a support group called "Harris Anonymous" ???

I can see the TV lawyer ads now as I order my copy of OUaTitW because of this very thread:

Have you or a loved one been enticed to drain your bank accounts because of the home video recommendations of one Robert Harris? YOU may be entitled to compensation!

 

[Robert Harris]

I can see the TV lawyer ads now as I order my copy of OUaTitW because of this very thread:

Have you or a loved one been enticed to drain your bank accounts because of the home video recommendations of one Robert Harris? YOU may be entitled to compensation!

It’s why HTF ownership supplies all reviewers with millions in liability insurance.

 

[Grubert]

Glenn Erickson on OuTW in 4K and on the film itself:

Once Upon a Time in the West - 4K - Trailers From Hell

“Only at the point of dying.” Hailed in Europe but ignored here, Sergio Leone’s most prestigious western transcends classic status. Its operatic gunfighter rituals become drama-sculptures of ‘genre destiny.’ Henry Fonda overturns his ethical, decent screen image with a supremely sadistic...

trailersfromhell.com

He also knows that Video Watchdog piece ...

 

[AllanMc]

I would have thought that the intent of a film restoration would be to bring a film back to its original intended form. Why then has the original cut of the film not been respected and why has the original music at the end been replaced with something else? This sounds more like a reinterpretation rather than a respectful restoration. Ethically from a preservation standpoint, the original version should to be preserved for the sake of posterity as it is a significant film and the original cut shouldn't only exist on Technicolor prints in the hands of collectors.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

I would have thought that the intent of a film restoration would be to bring a film back to its original intended form. Why then has the original cut of the film not been respected and why has the original music at the end been replaced with something else? This sounds more like a reinterpretation rather than a respectful restoration. Ethically from a preservation standpoint, the original version should to be preserved for the sake of posterity as it is a significant film and the original cut shouldn't only exist on Technicolor prints in the hands of collectors.

I agree with you, Allan.

It's my opinion that the problem, which seems to be consistent with Paramount, is that they have people there who have no clue about the films in their library. It's not like the old days when you had a competent restorationist like Ron Smith at the helm. Since his departure, things have never been the same for the studio. I mean, they put out a Blu-ray of SCROOGE (1970) a few years ago and forgot to include the overture. What kind of incompetence leads to a mistake like that?

And there is little argument that recent physical media releases by Paramount have been greatly criticized.

Sony and Warner consistently release top-tier 4k releases. I know what I'm getting when I purchase one of their titles. Meanwhile, when it comes to Paramount, one never knows what they are getting, and most often, it's not up to expectations.

 

[Robert Crawford]

I guess I'm the only one that appreciates Paramount output of catalog movies especially with boutique labels like Kino and Arrow.

 

[Robert Harris]

Glenn Erickson on OuTW in 4K and on the film itself:

Once Upon a Time in the West - 4K - Trailers From Hell

“Only at the point of dying.” Hailed in Europe but ignored here, Sergio Leone’s most prestigious western transcends classic status. Its operatic gunfighter rituals become drama-sculptures of ‘genre destiny.’ Henry Fonda overturns his ethical, decent screen image with a supremely sadistic...

trailersfromhell.com

He also knows that Video Watchdog piece ...

Another typical review from Mr. Erickson.

Merely the stuff to which other serious reviewers should wish to rise.

And we agree.

Thanks, Glenn!

 

[Robert Harris]

I agree with you, Allan.

It's my opinion that the problem, which seems to be consistent with Paramount, is that they have people there who have no clue about the films in their library. It's not like the old days when you had a competent restorationist like Ron Smith at the helm. Since his departure, things have never been the same for the studio. I mean, they put out a Blu-ray of SCROOGE (1970) a few years ago and forgot to include the overture. What kind of incompetence leads to a mistake like that?

And there is little argument that recent physical media releases by Paramount have been greatly criticized.

Sony and Warner consistently release top-tier 4k releases. I know what I'm getting when I purchase one of their titles. Meanwhile, when it comes to Paramount, one never knows what they are getting, and most often, it's not up to expectations.

The problem here is not Paramount‘s doing

This is the version of the film they released and own.

Could one go to Rome, sift through the history, the continuities and hundreds of cans to attempt to find the true god?

I don’t know. But if someone attempted to do so, it would not be an inexpensive project, as our domestic tracks also sync to a specific version.

Been there.

Done that.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

The problem here is not Paramount‘s doing

This is the version of the film they released and own.

Could one go to Rome, sift through the history, the continuities and hundreds of cans to attempt to find the true god?

I don’t know. But if someone attempted to do so, it would not be an inexpensive project, as our domestic tracks also sync to a specific version.

Been there.

Done that.

Hi RAH!

Understood.

However, another issue here is the low bitrate. This is something Paramount should have known better about given the scope of this film. It has been suggested that Kino would have maximized the bitrate on this release had they handled it instead of Paramount.

And just to add...

I am not saying Paramount's entire output is bad. It's just inconsistent. If I can borrow dialogue from one of their most successful films...

Paramount releases are like a box of chocolates. You never know what you are going to get.

 

[tenia]

Hi RAH!

Understood.

However, another issue here is the low bitrate. This is something Paramount should have known better about given the scope of this film. It has been suggested that Kino would have maximized the bitrate on this release had they handled it instead of Paramount.

And just to add...

I am not saying Paramount's entire output is bad. It's just inconsistent. If I can borrow dialogue from one of their most successful films...

Paramount releases are like a box of chocolates. You never know what you are going to get.

It's not just the bitrate : it's how it's used, how the encoder's settings are set. At a given target average bitrate, some people can do wonder while other people will output something sub-optimal. Paramount does that sometimes. Kino too, even when they use UHD-100. As you write : the issue is inconsistancy. With Paramount, it looks as if they have 2 teams in place, not following the same standards, one being more careful about this, the other not so much.

Sure enough : in such a context, it does help to start by not setting your own hurdles, and thus using everything you can instead of starting bit-starved already. But bitrate doesn't tell all, far from it, and it's important to keep this in mind. I would even argue that maxed out bitrates can give a false sense of security to whoever encodes a disc. "Oh it's maxed out, I can't get something wrong with that", but yes, one actually can (eg Criterion's Walkabout, Shout's Halloweens 1-5, or Kino's Body Snatchers).

Also : increasing the bitrate won't change grain management baked-in the source. If the grain is frozen by heavy grain management, or turned into a mushy fuzzy electronic layer, adding 25 Mbps won't change that. And if the argentic texture has been reduced to less that it was originally, adding 25 Mbps also won't change that. Video blockiness from sub-optimal compression (being from poor settings or insufficient bitrate) is different, both in origin and in visual consequences, than grain management.
This probably explains why this review still points towards grain management, despite having seen the remaster through Kaleidescape and it's bigger file.

All these 3 points though, disc sizes, encoder settings and grain management (or not) are, AFAIK, entirely down to Paramount.

 

[AllanMc]

But most of these remasters of Leone films are joint efforts involving the Italian rightsholders with scanning, grading and restoration work being done in Italy for some of the films. I don't think it would be a case of Paramount strictly being limited to what elements they have as the new 4k edition of the film is from the original negative which one would think would be held in Italy along with elements for English language tracks. For example: the 4k restoration for the Good, the Bad and the Ugly was worked on in Italy with MGM releasing their own cut using the same scan/restoration work which was provided to them. The Italian release has something resembling the original Italian theatrical cut as opposed to the longer MGM version which reinserted a scene back in which Leone wanted removed.

It's a thought but maybe the Italian edition of the film will have differences from the Paramount edition just like with the example above. In Once Upon a Time in the West's case though, it seems the cut released in Italy was the same as the cut originally released in other international countries except in countries where censorship cuts were made and of course the credits being presented in different languages. I don't understand why the scene with Harmonica rising was put back into the film when it wasn't there upon theatrical release and was actually introduced in a later cut down version of the film. I feel the film works much better without it and including it dilutes the shock of Harmonica's return later in the film as seeing him get up after being shots leaves no doubt about his fate to the viewer.

 

[johnmcmasters]

Is there a clip available on YouTube that has the Finale music correctly integrated into the film? I could only find an incomplete clip of the truncated version without the scene of Robards and Bronson in the gulch, and it does not continue to the end of the film.

I only ask because I'd like to gauge my emotional response to the "original" ending and compare it to the ending now offered with the "Cheyenne" theme closing the film. The "original" sweeping and soulful, soaring, music, minus the Cheyenne theme, to me at least, closed the film as I remember it on a nostalgic and elegiac note as if we are moving above and out of this world -- witnessing the end of what was and facing a difficult and uncertain future -- with the swirling graphic of the title "Once Upon a Time in the West" disappearing into the distance along with the old world. The theme has also been closely aligned with the "Jill" character so it closed the film, in a way, with her "voice."

The Cheyenne theme is used just moments before, of course, in the gulch, to count time and end something else in quite another, more stark, manner. Having it reappear at the very end in the version now before us just wrecks me emotionally, ending the film not only as an elegy and a fable, but also as a wrenching tragedy.

I'd like a chance to reevaluate my perceptions, but alas I haven't been able to do so and am relying strictly on memory! With apologies as this is, of course, not really a critical perspective, but a personal one.

 

[Robert Harris]

But most of these remasters of Leone films are joint efforts involving the Italian rightsholders with scanning, grading and restoration work being done in Italy for some of the films. I don't think it would be a case of Paramount strictly being limited to what elements they have as the new 4k edition of the film is from the original negative which one would think would be held in Italy along with elements for English language tracks. For example: the 4k restoration for the Good, the Bad and the Ugly was worked on in Italy with MGM releasing their own cut using the same scan/restoration work which was provided to them. The Italian release has something resembling the original Italian theatrical cut as opposed to the longer MGM version which reinserted a scene back in which Leone wanted removed.

It's a thought but maybe the Italian edition of the film will have differences from the Paramount edition just like with the example above. In Once Upon a Time in the West's case though, it seems the cut released in Italy was the same as the cut originally released in other international countries except in countries where censorship cuts were made and of course the credits being presented in different languages. I don't understand why the scene with Harmonica rising was put back into the film when it wasn't there upon theatrical release and was actually introduced in a later cut down version of the film. I feel the film works much better without it and including it dilutes the shock of Harmonica's return later in the film as seeing him get up after being shots leaves no doubt about his fate to the viewer.

Easy to get an answer. Merely contact whomever made the decisions between 1969 and the early '70s. Possibly send an email to Al LoPresti.