Avengers: ENDGAME (April 26, 2019) [NON-SPOILERS] (1 Viewer)

[Adam Lenhardt]

The debate seems to be whether Taika Waititi or the Russos should take over Guardians 3. I'd probably be happy with the resulting movie from either of those choices, but they seem to me like a failure of imagination. I'd rather they find someone new as unique and out of the box as Gunn was when they hired him for the first movie (but hopefully without the tweeting history). Give us something we didn't even know was a possibility.

I wouldn't be surprised if Avengers 4 is the last movie the the Russos make for Marvel, at least for a few years. This will be their fourth MCU movie, and they've been working on Marvel movies continuously since 2012. They've got to be ready for some new challenges and a different sandbox.

 

[Jake Lipson]

When Ragnarok came out, I remember Taika saying something to the effect of, "I was happy to come onto Thor because the tone hadn't really been as well-defined yet, but I wouldn't want to come onto the third of something like Guardians because James Gunn already set that." I'm paraphrasing and can't find the actual quote, but if he maintains that stance, Taika might not want it either.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

After watching Infinity War again today on disc, I am so ready for Avengers 4. Hard to believe it's only been less than four months since Infinity War came out in theaters, and therefore nine or 10 months until Avengers 4.

Cap has said that “we don’t trade lives” but isn’t six people a small price to pay to save half of all life in the universe?

I also think the ending of Infinity War was a firm repudiation of that mindset, which has cost him so much in both Civil War and Infinity War. In their failed attempt to save Vision, they doomed half the universe -- including several people he cares about just as much Vision. And even before Thanos's snap of the fingers, who knows how many Wakandans died so that Vision might live?

There has to be a healthy middle ground between Thanos's cold, brutal calculations and Steve Rogers's idealistic individualism.

I’ve already said that I think it’s a good possibility that Avengers 4 will pick up a good amount of time after Infinity War, possibly years.

I think you're right:

Spoiler: Speculation based on rumors

Emma Fuhrmann is rumored to be playing a teenage Cassie Lang in Avengers 4. Scott mentioned that she was 10 in Ant-Man and the Wasp, which would indicate a time jump of around six years. Assuming the conversation between Tony and Pepper in Central Park was foreshadowing, that would make their kid around five years old in Avengers 4.

It would also give the ending of Infinity War more weight since it will mean that the surviving Avengers have lived with the consequences of their failure for over half a decade -- even if they ultimately end up succeeding at undoing the mass culling and resetting the timeline.

I like your theory about Scott being trapped in the Quantum Realm as an explanation for the time jump. It also makes me wonder if the reason Captain Marvel hasn't appeared until now is because the ending of Captain Marvel will send her on a mission to the other side of the galaxy, and it takes her six years to receive Nick Fury's page and return to Earth.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Whatever happens with Captain Marvel in the film, I hope it's not a hugely substantial part of the resolution.

Nothing against the character, but I feel that might otherwise be too "deus ex machina"-y for me. I think it might feel like a cheat if none of the Avengers, Guardians or other MCU characters were able to do anything, but then at the eleventh hour this brand new character who just got her own movie comes in and saves the day in a way that heroes we've been invested in for over ten years now were unable to do. It would also make the character too powerful to ever really be able to enjoy. So while I expect to see Captain Marvel in Avengers 4, I hope that it's more of a minor role where she somehow helps the heroes that we've been invested in for a decade to solve the problem, rather than them handing it all off to her.

 

[Jake Lipson]

So while I expect to see Captain Marvel in Avengers 4, I hope that it's more of a minor role where she somehow helps the heroes that we've been invested in for a decade to solve the problem, rather than them handing it all off to her.

I think there is a reason that Nick Fury paged her, and there is a reason that we are supposed to see the solo film first, rather than them working her in in a backdoor kind of way like Black Panther and Spider-Man in Civil War. So I would expect she will come into play in a significant way. But I agree that it's important for the characters we have been following for 20 films to have their victory, and that her victory as a newbie to us is not the same as their victory. I'm sure Marvel knows this, and I hope/think they deserve the benefit of the doubt on this, so I'm willing to give them that for now.

It's also not out of the question that Captain Marvel herself could be a snap victim (although if she is, how they would work her into the story is more of an open question, since the Infinity War tag seems to imply that she will respond to Fury's page.)

Although snapping leading players out of existence makes it obvious that they will return, the characters they left alive include all of the original Avengers from Joss Whedon's first film. I'm sure that this is deliberate, and it suggests that the original Avengers (including Tony and Steve) will have to reconcile and work together to resolve this. I assume that, while the snap victims will eventually reappear, the majority of the film will probably have to focus on the efforts of the currently living characters to undo this, and seeing the original band get back together for potentially a last mission will provide a lot of the emotion for this film whether or not Captain Marvel is involved.

I do wonder, however, if they might not have snapped T'Challa had they known Black Panther was going to be that huge.

 

[holtge]

Only nine months until we find out!

 

[Sean Bryan]

Only nine months until we find out!

Actually only eight months. Still feels like a long wait though.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Actually only eight months. Still feels like a long wait though.

Fortunately, time flies when you've crumbled into dust.

 

[Sean Bryan]

There has to be a healthy middle ground between Thanos's cold, brutal calculations and Steve Rogers's idealistic individualism.

Keep in mind that while Steve was their leader in this situation, even if he decided they shouldn’t take any risk and should destroy the stone immediately it ultimately wasn’t up to him. Wanda was the only one who could possibly destroy the stone, and that meant killing the person she loved. Steve couldn’t just order her to do that. She would have to think it was the only, last option.

So they had a plan that prepared them to pay this price but at least gave Vision a chance. Attempt to remove the stone in a way in which Vision, or at least part of him, could survive. Destroy it as soon as it’s out. If they run out of time, then the sacrifice would have to be made and Wanda would RELUCTANTLY-PAINFULLY-TRAGICALLY have to kill him. Things didn’t go as they’d hoped, but when it came down to it their plan succeeded. Wanda destroyed the stone (and Vision died).

They didn’t factor in Thanos having control over time. But it wouldn’t have mattered. There really wasn’t anything they could have done. Once Thanos got the Time Stone from Strange it was all over. They could have forced Wanda to destroy he Stone and kill Vision right there at the Avengers facility and never went to Wakanda. When Thanos arrived on Earth later that day he’d still be able to turn things back and claim the Stone.

Really only Thor going for the head instead of the heart could have stopped the snap.

 

[Sean Bryan]

I wouldn’t worry about their use of Captain Marvel. If you’ve listened to any interviews of the Russos and Markus&McFeely they take story, character, and the fact that these two movies are a culmination of ten years of storytelling seriously. They wouldn’t make that kind of mistake and give her the big win moment. No way.

Now, considering how they have handled so many new characters so well, both in introducing them for the first time and picking up from what other filmmakers have done, I’m sure they will do some really cool stuff with her. With so many characters I think they would have chosen to just not use her if they didn’t think they had a good user for her. But I’m fairly confident that the ultimate conclusion,/sacrifice/victory will be primarily coming from established Avengers.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Sean, I suspect you're right, and these guys do get the benefit of the doubt from me.

 

[Jake Lipson]

It's also worth noting that, due to scheduling, Brie Larson had to shoot her Avengers 4 scenes before going to do the standalone film, so we're going to be seeing it in reverse order from the way it was shot. This probably means that they wanted to give the standalone film room to define and develop the character, so I'd be surprised if her Avengers 4 appearance was larger than Black Panther or Spider-Man in Civil War, where they were present but not the focal point.

 

[holtge]

I agree with all of you. I just can't see any other outcome than the one you guys have already described. My guess is that Captain Marvel will play a part in the final showdown, but just a small part, leaving the grand heroics for the original six Avengers.

 

[Sam Favate]

I watched deleted scenes on the blu-ray, and I liked them a lot. But it made me long for the heydays of DVDs when Lucasfilm would actually finish special effects for deleted scenes.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Although snapping leading players out of existence makes it obvious that they will return, the characters they left alive include all of the original Avengers from Joss Whedon's first film. I'm sure that this is deliberate, and it suggests that the original Avengers (including Tony and Steve) will have to reconcile and work together to resolve this.

Absolutely, and I'm really glad you mentioned it. This observation didn't occur to me when I watched the film in theaters, but really stood out rewatching it on disc.

Although technically we don't know whether Hawkeye lived or not, since he was offscreen the whole movie, it's a safe assumption that he did. I wouldn't be surprised if Clint Barton finds himself in the same situation as Nora Durst on "The Leftovers", where he's the only one from his immediate family left. It would explain why he's free to join the fight now, since he's no longer tied down with family responsibilities, and it would really drive home the personal cost of the Avengers' failure in Infinity War.

It seems like the Russos were almost making a trilogy of movies within the larger canvas of the MCU, with Civil War introducing the conflict, Infinity War plunging them into the abyss, and Avengers 4 resolving the conflict.

Given how prominently Iron Man and Thor were featured in Infinity War, I expect Captain America and Black Widow to move more to the foreground in Avengers 4. And after teasing us with the Hulk and then denying us the Hulk after the initial opening sequence, you know there's got to a moment when Hulk smashes.

I do wonder, however, if they might not have snapped T'Challa had they known Black Panther was going to be that huge.

I think they had their primary characters in mind for Avengers 4 when they made their decisions, and then after that it was about maximum impact. I think the reason Rocket is the one Guardian who survived is because him watching Groot disintegrate into nothing was the most powerful possible impact. Likewise, T'Challa is the embodiment of Wakanda. Him being gone sends all of the surviving Wakandans (including, presumably, his sister) in dramatically different directions. It's a tremendously destabilizing development. And having Okoye be the one to witness it is incredibly impactful, because her most important function is to protect the king -- a man she also has a deep personal loyalty to.

Bucky pretty much had to be one of the ones to go, because he was the insurmountable obstacle that kept Tony and Steve at odds with one another. And Sam's elimination also furthers this purpose; Except for Natasha, Steve Rogers is basically alone in the world at the end of Infinity War.

It's also worth noting that, due to scheduling, Brie Larson had to shoot her Avengers 4 scenes before going to do the standalone film, so we're going to be seeing it in reverse order from the way it was shot. This probably means that they wanted to give the standalone film room to define and develop the character, so I'd be surprised if her Avengers 4 appearance was larger than Black Panther or Spider-Man in Civil War, where they were present but not the focal point.

I would agree, especially since the sheer number of characters in Avengers 4, even after Thanos's great culling, is significantly greater than Civil War. There just wouldn't be room to feature her more prominently than Black Panther was in that movie. I think they're also appropriately wary of what having a character that powerful does to the stakes and the drama. You'd don't want to fall in the trap of "The Flash", where the protagonist is forced to behave incredibly stupidly, because otherwise someone with his powers would deal with the threat too easily.

 

[holtge]

I watched deleted scenes on the blu-ray, and I liked them a lot. But it made me long for the heydays of DVDs when Lucasfilm would actually finish special effects for deleted scenes.

Ah yes, the good old days.

 

[Sam Favate]

Captain Marvel will play a key role in Avengers 4 — and the future of the MCU

https://ew.com/movies/2018/09/07/ca...entertainmentweekly_ew&utm_source=twitter.com

 

[Robert Crawford]

Captain Marvel will play a key role in Avengers 4 — and the future of the MCU

https://ew.com/movies/2018/09/07/ca...entertainmentweekly_ew&utm_source=twitter.com

Why is Captain Marvel more powerful than other Avengers? Nevermind, I found something about her powers. Most people like myself don't know much about Captain Marvel as it pertains to her acquired powers due to having a certain alien species part of her DNA.

 

[Tino]

I know zero about Captain Marvel.

And to be honest I don’t care at this point. Brie Larson looks silly in that costume. And after her horrific performance in Kong Skull Island I have my doubts about her acting and headlining such a huge film (Room not withstanding).

Marvel seems to be building up the character to epic proportions.

To those in the know is Captain Marvel that awesome??

 

[dpippel]

I think she looks GREAT in that costume! And her "horrific performance" in Kong: Skull Island? Come on. They were ALL bad. The film was bad. Why single her out?