In the market for a 4k projector (1 Viewer)

[DaveF]

And I’ve wondered if my projector has degraded black levels. The black bars are noticeably not black. They are grey, at best. But I don’t have the visual memory to recall what it was when new. I was sure it’s black levels don’t compare with JVC. What I didn’t know was how it compared to current Epson levels.

I think it’s 5x worse than a new Epson LS12000. Which is really helpful to know. An LS12k could be a major upgrade visually in all regards for me.

 

[DaveF]

I’d like to try doing ANSI contrast readings later. The basics are straightforward. Though people seem to differ on nuances.

 

[DaveF]

Sony VPL-HW40ES Three-Chip SXRD Projector Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com

The Sony entry-level projector, VPL-HW40ES, is a high quality 1080p projector at an affordable price. This Sony projector is bright with excellent color.

hometheaterhifi.com

Measuring contrast using a luminance meter I measure a contrast ratio in high lamp mode of 5,035:1

And I found this for the 50ES, a higher end projector from a couple years earlier.

Sony VPL-HW50ES Projector - HomeTheaterHifi.com

At a CEDIA that was big on 4K and sound bars, the introduction of the VPL-HW50ES went under the radar a bit. Slotting into their lineup above the HW30 and below the HW95, the HW50 comes with a few features from each of those, but also has its own unique features to set it apart. Far brighter...

hometheaterhifi.com

For calibration I utilized the user mode, targeting 16 fL for peak light output. On a 96″ 1.3 gain Solar HD screen, I got 15.98 fL of light with the lamp on low and the iris manually set to 50. This allows for a lot of room to open the iris and switch the lamp to high as it ages without the screen dimming. The black level was 0.0029 fL, giving a contrast ratio of 5550:1. With the dynamic iris engaged, the black level was too low to measure.

 

[DaveF]

I exchanged my light meter for the current model. It's got an integrated tripod mount, so easier to use. And then repeated the on/off measurements to check my results. In short, same results of around 750:1.

I also checked the HDMI range setting. Auto / Limited was correct. Going to Full clearly boosted black levels / lowered contrast. I again used the YT video. I did a sanity check with my HTPC and a paint app which gave about the same results; but as it's not fullscreen (with Windows application menus and borders etc) I didn't worry too much about it.

My Sony is in Lamp High. I didn't try Lamp Low since I was running out of time.

I considered ANSI contrast measurements, but immediately realized that was too big a project with how difficult it was to maneuver my meter for good readings.

I did do some off-screen and reflected-light checks to see how much my room affects the image. I conclude, not much. Practically, I can benefit from a higher contrast projector. And I'd need a better meter to really measure the effects accurately.

 

[DaveF]

Got the meter a bit more centered this time, in case it matters



The meter orientation to make it work


Full White: 9800 to 10800


Full black: 11 to 15

 

[DaveF]

Here I’m at my screen.

Full white at screen


Full black at screen


I think this was full white on screen with meter just off screen


This is full white and meter in my shadow


This is full black at screen. iPhone is doing low light mode; this is dark grey visually.


This is full black meter in my shadow. Again iPhone doing low light mode, and visually screen is dark gray.

 

[DaveF]

Here are three photos I took Sep 2016 on an iPhone 8. The Sony 40ES would have ~100 hrs original bulb use. These might show my projector has not degraded but has always been ~1000:1 on/off contrast. These grays are representative of what I see now. I'm not 100% sure I had HDMI range correct then, though I probably did.



And then here are two snapshots from 2020, albeit without any letterboxing


These are from late 2021, when I was thinking about how higher contrast projector might work in my theater vis a vis its wall reflections.


I don't know if these inform anything more than my (in)ability to photograph my projector's image

 

[Gregg Loewen]

your readings are only as good as your tool. My tool a Klein K10A @ $6900 is somewhat suspect for CR measurements.

(although I do understand your concern relating to Sony projectors and image degradation.)

 

[DaveF]

your readings are only as good as your tool. My tool a Klein K10A @ $6900 is somewhat suspect for CR measurements.

I've repeatedly measured ~800:1 ± 15% with two different meters. With the current $35 meter, I measured that contrast both at the projector and at the screen. It's easy to see this budget meter is:

• Linear from 0.2 lux to 10,000 lux
• Precise to ~15%

And that's all that matters. Linearity and Precision are all that's needed since I'm doing contrast ratios. Accuracy is not needed since I'm unconcerned about radiometric absolutes.

It's pretty clear my budget meter is good enough to show my projector is 1000:1 vs 5000:1 contrast.

(And the meter was recommended by a professional projector reviewer for someone like me who wants useful radiometric measurements on a budget.)

 

[DaveF]

Played with projector settings, using some settings from an old review, and retook my CR.

Got it from 800:1 up to 1700:1.
The basic parameters of the display mode and gamma or maybe cranking up the Contrast are probably key to getting to 1600:1. I then dialed Brightness down to the minimum black floor, which took it to 1700:1.

I measured both at projector and at screen to double check and get the same answer with probably 5%.

So, still coming up with 2x to 4x loss of contrast. Tells me even getting to 5000:1 would be a real improvement.

 

[DaveF]

Is an 18 Gbps HDMI connection sufficient for 4K streaming / UHD / HTPC viewing with a JVC NP5 or NZ7?

I’ve got an HDMI over Ethernet cable run to my HD projector. It’s looking like getting a new 4K / 8K HDMI cable up there is very difficult (i.e. cut into walls and ceilings to access and run new cables and then repair and re-finish).

Setting aside 4k@120 gaming, am I otherwise ok with an 18Gb connection? I’m figuring out what must be solved before buying and what can wait until after buying a new 4K projector. Thanks!

I believe I’ve got the KD-X400ProK
Feature-Packed HDBaseT/HDMI Extenders with UHD/4K are Here!

• 4K/Ultra HD: Support for 4096x2160 or 3840x2160 24/25/30Hz at 4:4:4 or 60Hz at 4:2:0

 

[DaveF]

I'm the owner of a new-to-me JVC NX7.

It's currently on the floor of my theater. I turned it on to make sure it made the trip home ok, updated the firmware to the current 3.52, and did a factory reset so I can start fresh.

My very first reaction was "Wow remote control motorized lens control!!!"

I hoped to hang it this weekend. But I realized I wanted a shorter 1.5" NPT pipe than what I've got. I've got something on order coming tomorrow to try. Hope to have time next weekend to remove the Sony 40ES and install the NX7. Otherwise, it's my Thanksgiving project.

 

[Wardog555]

Is an 18 Gbps HDMI connection sufficient for 4K streaming / UHD / HTPC viewing with a JVC NP5 or NZ7?

I’ve got an HDMI over Ethernet cable run to my HD projector. It’s looking like getting a new 4K / 8K HDMI cable up there is very difficult (i.e. cut into walls and ceilings to access and run new cables and then repair and re-finish).

Setting aside 4k@120 gaming, am I otherwise ok with an 18Gb connection? I’m figuring out what must be solved before buying and what can wait until after buying a new 4K projector. Thanks!

I believe I’ve got the KD-X400ProK
Feature-Packed HDBaseT/HDMI Extenders with UHD/4K are Here!

• 4K/Ultra HD: Support for 4096x2160 or 3840x2160 24/25/30Hz at 4:4:4 or 60Hz at 4:2:0

Yeah absolutely. You only need higher bandwith when doing 4k120hz gaming or 8k60hz.

Even basic 4k 24fps content you may not need 18gb in the first place!

But 4k60hz all you need 18gb bandwith.

 

[Lee Sandersen]

Now, I have had a 123 inch diagonal screen and HD in my theater for 22 years. I love it, but the kind of money I would have to spend to come anywhere near the contrast and perfection of a cheap Walmart 4K direct view TV is so out of the realm of possibility. We are quickly reaching the time when projectors are going to be obsolete. I saw an 86 inch 4K on sale this weekend for under 2K. How big of a screen do you need/want? Might be worth considering and would make your wife smile too. 100 inch 4Ks are still too expensive, but 86 inches might be okay in a small room, say an old bedroom now a theater. If my house ever burned down, I am not sure I would go with another theater as I now have when I rebuilt. For now, drudging to the dark basement is getting old with my arthritic joints. Oh, I would miss the 2 levels of seating and that wow factor that guests still have, but maybe a dedicated room on the main floor with limited or no light would work. A small room would make an 86 inch TV seem huge judging by the short distance from seating. Perhaps I am just speaking as an aging man, but for many, it makes sense.

 

[GeorgeHolland]

Now, I have had a 123 inch diagonal screen and HD in my theater for 22 years. I love it, but the kind of money I would have to spend to come anywhere near the contrast and perfection of a cheap Walmart 4K direct view TV is so out of the realm of possibility. We are quickly reaching the time when projectors are going to be obsolete. I saw an 86 inch 4K on sale this weekend for under 2K. How big of a screen do you need/want? Might be worth considering and would make your wife smile too. 100 inch 4Ks are still too expensive, but 86 inches might be okay in a small room, say an old bedroom now a theater. If my house ever burned down, I am not sure I would go with another theater as I now have when I rebuilt. For now, drudging to the dark basement is getting old with my arthritic joints. Oh, I would miss the 2 levels of seating and that wow factor that guests still have, but maybe a dedicated room on the main floor with limited or no light would work. A small room would make an 86 inch TV seem huge judging by the short distance from seating. Perhaps I am just speaking as an aging man, but for many, it makes sense.

I had a group over on Thanksgiving and football was on in the family room on an LG 77 CX, the Giants v Cowboys was in 4K. My son has a newer model of a 65" LG OLED. He understands the OLED's are brighter and have other advantages but when I invited my Son, Daughter and their significant others down to the theater to see the 4K RS3100 on a 115” x 49” (125 diag.) 2.35:1 screen and put on Top Gun Maverick for what I thought would be a few minute demo, none of them would leave and they watched the entire movie. Size matters, 83 or 86 v 77 might make a difference but 125 inches makes more even in my jaded kids eyes.

 

[DaveF]

Yeah absolutely. You only need higher bandwith when doing 4k120hz gaming or 8k60hz.

Even basic 4k 24fps content you may not need 18gb in the first place!

But 4k60hz all you need 18gb bandwith.

My 18Gbps connection was fine for 4K HDR. But it didn’t support HDCP 2.2 so I had to upgrade to a new cable for some content to play.

 

[DaveF]

How big of a screen do you need/want? Might be worth considering and would make your wife smile too.

120” makes my wife smile.

 

[DaveF]

Projectors have all kinds of compromises, and more so against HDR direct view. But…120” still trumps 80” for me. But it’s a matter of taste. I get someone wanting all the benefits of a 70” OLED, with none of the costs or downsides of a projector.

I’m hoping 120” direct views get here sooner than later. I’ll figure out how to make it work in my room.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I remember there was a time here when people would ask for advice with setting up their projectors and some would about doing 80-90 inch sizes. We really don’t get posts from people doing new projector setups at that size and I’m sure that has everything to do with flat panels in that size being much more available than they were a decade ago. I expect that trend to continue with increasingly larger sizes of flat panels at shrinking price points to take up more of the market space occupied by projectors.

Besides the whole larger screen size at the lower price point thing, I feel that there’s something intangibly wonderful about the quality of projected light vs direct view, particularly for movies made before the era of 4K HDR and movies shot on film. But I imagine that’s also a distinction that’s not noticeable or important or applicable to the majority of the buying public. I know it’s a niche viewpoint.

Once 100 - 120” flat panels become readily available and price competitive with projectors, I think you’re gonna see a lot of projector owners bailing on projectors next time they’re looking to upgrade/replace their gear.

 

[Sam Posten]

Im ready to bail today