UHD Why I’m looking forward to a HDR release of the Godfather Movies (1 Viewer)

[Robert Crawford]

Robert...

We’re discussing films NOT finished in 4k.

To be clear, and presuming that the Blu-ray and 4k disc are derived from the same recent master, you’ll get a slight quality bump in image quality in viewing the 4k vs your player uprez.

They will not be equal, but can be very close. The Oppo does a superb job of uprezzing.

But the more obvious upgrade, which for many is the rationale for replacing a quality HD Blu-ray, will be the audio upgrade to Atmos or X.

I did that recently for the Pitch Perfect films.

RAH,

Understood!

However, I did several comparisons to films not finished in 4K, but have received a 4K/UHD release. I compared that 4K disc to the previously released BD of the same title. With my Oppo 203 and untrained eyes, I can see significant differences on my LG OLED. I've done such comparisons on countless titles because of my former logic of not buying 4K/UHD releases in which the film wasn't finished in 4K. That was my mantra when I first got into the 4K format. However, those comparison differences changed my thought pattern on using that logic to determine my purchasing strategy.

 

[Robert Crawford]

I'm pretty confident in saying a 4k UHD of Renoir's Rules of the Game will look no better than the Criterion blu-ray.

I don't agree, perhaps on some titles because of other factors, but not on most of them.

 

[Robert Harris]

RAH,

Understood!

However, I did several comparisons to films not finished in 4K, but have received a 4K/UHD release. I compared that 4K disc to the previously released BD of the same title. With my Oppo 203 and untrained eyes, I can see significant differences on my LG OLED. I've done such comparisons on countless titles because of my former logic of not buying 4K/UHD releases in which the film wasn't finished in 4K. That was my mantra when I first got into the 4K format. However, those comparison differences changed my thought pattern on using that logic to determine my purchasing strategy.

Important that HD Blu and 4k are derived from same master.

One of the more confusing ethics, at least to me, is that when a new image harvest is performed for a new 4k release, the BD that rides along, is not from that new master, but rather a re-packaging of the previous Blu.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Important that HD Blu and 4k are derived from same master.

One of the more confusing ethics, at least to me, is that when a new image harvest is performed for a new 4k release, the BD that rides along, is not from that new master, but rather a re-packaging of the previous Blu.

Now, we're changing the dynamics of the situation. As my comparisons were the previous BD of the same title with the most recent 4K release. If the BD that came with 4K disc is derived from the same master as the 4K disc then we're talking about something different then what I was arguing. If for instance Criterion which has been releasing some titles derived from new 4K masters, released it on Blu-ray and 4K disc separately, both derived from that same new master then those differences I previously noticed would be a lot harder to detect on my Oppo 203/LD OLED set up. Perhaps, that's one of the reasons why Criterion hasn't released any 4K/UHD releases. I don't know so I'm just speculating there.

 

[Robert Harris]

Now, we're changing the dynamics of the situation. As my comparisons were the previous BD of the same title with the most recent 4K release. If the BD that came with 4K disc is derived from the same master as the 4K disc then we're talking about something different then what I was arguing. If for instance Criterion which has been releasing some titles derived from new 4K masters, released it on Blu-ray and 4K disc separately, both derived from that same new master then those differences I previously noticed would be a lot harder to detect on my Oppo 203/LD OLED set up. Perhaps, that's one of the reasons why Criterion hasn't released any 4K/UHD releases. I don't know so I'm just speculating there.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

 

[sleroi]

Ok, I think the light bulb is starting to go off now.

So a lot of the films I mentioned before, late 80s or 90s, shot on 35mm have received 4k scans off the OCN, thus the image we are seeing has captured 4k worth of information and looks so much better.

But a film finished in, say, 2k and has a blu and 4k blu from the same master, the difference will be miniscule when the blu is uprezzed.

And thusly, a 4k blu from an hd master is meaningless.

And to get back on topic, the Godfather was filmed in such a way that a 4k scan would render pointless the artistic achievement of Mr. Willis.

Took me awhile, but I think I learned something. Thank you.

 

[Robert Harris]

Ok, I think the light bulb is starting to go off now.

So a lot of the films I mentioned before, late 80s or 90s, shot on 35mm have received 4k scans off the OCN, thus the image we are seeing has captured 4k worth of information and looks so much better.

But a film finished in, say, 2k and has a blu and 4k blu from the same master, the difference will be miniscule when the blu is uprezzed.

And thusly, a 4k blu from an hd master is meaningless.

And to get back on topic, the Godfather was filmed in such a way that a 4k scan would render pointless the artistic achievement of Mr. Willis.

Took me awhile, but I think I learned something. Thank you.

Totally depends upon the film.

The Godfather(s) in 4k are magnificent. Just no HDR. The films have far more than 2k info, and projected in 4k are perfection.

 

[sleroi]

Since the Godfather(s) were shot on film, when you say "projected in 4k" are you talking about digital projection from a 4k digitally restored master or actual film projection?

 

[Robert Harris]

Since the Godfather(s) were shot on film, when you say "projected in 4k" are you talking about digital projection from a 4k digitally restored master or actual film projection?

4k projection is superior to a 35mm print.

 

[Lord Dalek]

I don't agree, perhaps on some titles because of other factors, but not on most of them.

I think having your negative blown up in World War II and the best surviving materials being cobbled together from dupes (and in some cases dupes of dupes) counts as "other factors".

 

[Dave H]

It's hard to believe the BDs are nine years old already. I actually watched The Godfather BDs fairly recently on my front projection set-up: JVC RS440 calibrated by one of the top traveling calibrators to a 9 foot wide Stewart ST100 scope screen. So, I'm watching these at around 95" on my CIH set-up sitting about 9.5 feet back. In four words: they still look gorgeous. The color, contrast, blacks, shadows, and overall 'look'. I really think any complaints around these matters stems around lack of proper calibration and/or lack of understanding the filmmaker's wishes. Having a poor gamma, contrast not set right, etc. could certainly make the delicacies of these films lost on such a display or projector.

With I and II being on my very top favorite movie list, I would love to see these on UHD BD even at SDR + rec 709.

 

[Robert Crawford]

I think having your negative blown up in World War II and the best surviving materials being cobbled together from dupes (and in some cases dupes of dupes) counts as "other factors".

I'm sorry for the quoting your post about Rules of the Game, as I was thinking in general terms regarding classic films getting 4K/UHD releases. I shouldn't have quoted your post.

 

[Synnove]

Again, just because you use the HDR format (the PQ EOTF) doesn't mean you have to grade for the full range offered by HDR. If a studio released this, or any other film on UHD in SDR (2.4 gamma EOTF), it would be worse for it due to higher potential for banding.

Same could be said for REC709 primaries; given that film has a larger gamut than 709, there is no reason to not use P3.

 

[Sam Posten]

You guys still arguing about this?

 

[Lord Dalek]

You guys still arguing about this?

Yeah and I don't know why either. Hard to make a convincing argument about increasing the color gamut (no matter how technobabble gets copy pasted without any practical context) when your film was intentionally stylized with a very limited color pallet.

 

[JPCinema]

I remember well the conversations I had with Gordon Willis on set during shooting GODFATHER II.....about shadows and light.

 

[Robert Harris]

I remember well the conversations I had with Gordon Willis on set during shooting GODFATHER II.....about shadows and light.

Then you understand how specific optics, filters, processing and precise color timing play a role in which HDR plays no part.

 

[Angelo Colombus]

When Godfather gets released on 4k disc will it have the original Paramount logo? I know Paramount is no longer owned by Gulf & Western and is a corporate decision but just wondering since I do have the older vhs & lasers of the film. I think in another post Robert did mention about there never was an head logo, only at the end and Mr. Coppola approved the addition of a beginning logo.

 

[Lord Dalek]

When Godfather gets released on 4k disc will it have the original Paramount logo? I know Paramount is no longer owned by Gulf & Western and is a corporate decision but just wondering since I do have the older vhs & lasers of the film. I think in another post Robert did mention about there never was an head logo, only at the end and Mr. Coppola approved the addition of a beginning logo.

This is true. The oldest VHS copies of The Godfather and Godfather Part II start in complete darkness with the Paramount logos only showing up at the very end (for whatever reason Paramount spliced the 1968 logo back in on the 1990 VHS of Part I). Although funnily enough the original logo was preserved on the first DVD of Godfather Part II.

 

[JPCinema]

Then you understand how specific optics, filters, processing and precise color timing play a role in which HDR plays no part.

Exactly! It was great to watch the rushes of the film with cast members but most importantly overhearing Coppola and Willis discussing them.