Scott Atwell Star Trek Discussion thread (Series and Films) (2 Viewers)

[ScottRE]

Exactly! Khan did far *less* than Rojan and the Kelvans did (Khan never actually killed anyone) but look how he got treated compared to the Kelvans who are going to get the welcome wagon from the Federation as opposed to "exile" (Frankly Kirk should have turned the tables on Rojan by making him a block and then crushing it under his foot).

Khan wasn't treated poorly at all. He was given a beautiful uninhabited planet to mold to his liking. The ultimate freedom. He could have been locked up and his people put back on ice, but nope.

It's just crap luck the next planet over blew up a few months later and ruined everything.

Rojan killed one person. Granted that sucks, but still Kirk offered to let him stay and send a robot ship back with a friendship proposal. How is that a bad choice over kicking Rojan and his people back towards Andromeda, pissed off and having the Kelvans send back an invading army generations later?

Khan, by the way, was a tyrant on Earth. The "best" of them, but still a tyrant and with that usually comes a body count even if there were no "massacres" under his rule. Rojan was a ship's captain with alien sensibilities who did what he had to in order to insure the success of his mission.

 

[Jack P]

I think the difference though comes down to the fact that Rojan gets "Federation integration" meaning there's going to be a ton of supervised exchange and regular contact, whereas Khan as we know was left on his own and the key thing is there was *zero follow up*. And for me that's the one flaw of Trek II in that Kirk never has a moment of introspection where he should ponder if maybe he does bear responsibility for the horror of what Khan's people went through because he certainly didn't intend for that to happen. Not that it justifies what Khan did afterwards, but it at least would have given us a dash of nuance that I think on further reflection is sadly missing from the film. Kirk should have made it a priority to have Starfleet monitor Ceti Alpha V from a distance (the fact that they didn't know about the planet exploding really shows a serious bureaucratic foul-up at Starfleet at bare minimum).

 

[ScottRE]

The thing about Star Trek II is that everything happens so quickly, pretty much a matter of hours from the Reliant attack to Spock's death. Kirk really only has one moment of quiet calm and he's too busy grappling with his own life decisions to let Carol's wishes keep him away from his son. Also, funny enough, Khan never told Kirk why he wanted revenge. For all Kirk knew, Khan was just pissed he was put on a plant with whatever supplies Kirk let him go with. There's never any mention of Ceti Alpha VI exploding and Kirk cuts off Terrell at the death of his wife" statement so fast, it's hard to see just how much that sunk in.

I agree with your feeling that Kirk and the story would have had a little more depth with that introspection. But I only thought about that stuff decades after the fact. This quick little Star Trek movie was just so freaking amazing, it never registered. I was more focused on figuring out how Chekov met Khan and why Klingons had a neutral zone near what was previous Romulan space at Gamma Hydra.

As for what Kirk's responsibility to Khan actually was, it was definitely Starfleet's job to monitor Khan if they chose. Kirk's hands were washed the moment he made his log entry and closed out McGivers' service record. Khan was quickly forgotten with all of the other stuff Kirk had to deal with after dropping off the Botany Bay crew.

Following this event, he went back in time and let his love die in order to reset the timeline, watch his brother and sister in law die (horribly), fake his own death to save Spock, travel to an alternate universe, stop a Plant Killer, free his crew from slavery and Quatloos, stop an AI from destroying starships, go back time again, and then pretend go back in time to fight some cowboys, rescue Spock's brain, then go into innerspace, be forced to fight some Klingons and defeat a bloodthirsty alien, lose his memory while getting married and watching his pregnant wife die, defeat a child predator obese attorney gorgon, go back in time AGAIN and then get his body back from a woman (and I'm skipping over two dozen other things).

Now imagine if Kirk had the time to tell Khan all that!

 

[Nelson Au]

I offer that if Kirk and the Enterprise had not intervened, and Khan and the Botany Bay had reached a planet on their own, it was just as likely the situation would be just as rough.

The way Space Seed ends, it’s inferred they leave Khan and his people alone to survive. Spock says it would be interesting to someday see how Khan and his people blossom.

 

[Nelson Au]

I decided to watch A Piece of the Action tonight. I did enjoy it more than usual. James Komack did an episode of Get Smart that year, both as director and cameo as a hitman. He’s definitely a comedy director.

I noticed a long time ago some interesting directorial choices Komack makes. The teaser is one long tracking shot if I’m not mistaken. Kirk walks onto the bridge, talks to Uhura, sits in his chair and Shatner slowly rotates the chair and the camera moves in tandem so that Uhura is behind Kirk’s left shoulder. Then Shatner gets up to Scotty’s station to find the fireplug, and then walks to the turbo lift and pulls Spock and McCoy with him. That’s a neat shot. And there are other interesting camera set-ups though out the episode.

Vic Tayback is another connection to Bullitt. Anthony Caruso seems to play all sorts of ethnicities but what surprised me was seeing a younger Caruso on Adventures of Superman as a similar gangster.

A Piece of the Action was definitely not serious Star Trek. But as was said earlier, it starts based on a solid science fiction idea of what happens to a society if an alien leaves some artifacts behind. Right? Check.

 

[Jack P]

The thing about Star Trek II is that everything happens so quickly, pretty much a matter of hours from the Reliant attack to Spock's death. Kirk really only has one moment of quiet calm and he's too busy grappling with his own life decisions to let Carol's wishes keep him away from his son. Also, funny enough, Khan never told Kirk why he wanted revenge. For all Kirk knew, Khan was just pissed he was put on a plant with whatever supplies Kirk let him go with. There's never any mention of Ceti Alpha VI exploding and Kirk cuts off Terrell at the death of his wife" statement so fast, it's hard to see just how much that sunk in.

I agree with your feeling that Kirk and the story would have had a little more depth with that introspection. But I only thought about that stuff decades after the fact. This quick little Star Trek movie was just so freaking amazing, it never registered.

I do agree that it didn't register at the time. In fact I don't think it ever registered for a long time that Kirk and Khan never come face-to-face in the story and only talk on monitors and com-lines (the reason of course being Montalban's limited schedule). Trek II was indeed such an exciting contrast to how dull and plodding the first movie seemed, and it captured the essence of the series in a way the first film didn't that I overlooked those points at the time and it's only been in the years since that they've grown on me.

I do think the ideal time-out moment for introspection would have been the Genesis cave sequence. Instead of the "it's a long story" brush-off and too much talk about Carol and David that with hindsight drags the film down given the sudden discarding of David in Trek III, I could have easily seen Kirk getting a quick summary of what happened from Chekov, then going off to think about what happened (perhaps even remembering McGivers) and McCoy would then tell him that he can think about Khan as a tragic figure later etc. when he's first got to be concerned with stopping him.

 

[Osato]

A special 4k steelbook of search for Spock is coming on May 28th.

 

[Osato]

Were there radio spots for all of the classic trek films? I’ve never come across them or seen them. I’m assuming most were on tape only for radio?

 

[ScottRE]

I remember one for Star Trek II. That is the only one I remember hearing. That doesn't mean I don't think there were any for the other films, I just heard the one.

 

[Nelson Au]

I had a quesrion in mind because of the recent The Odd Couple and Gomer Pyle blu ray releases. CBS Paramount did not restore those series with all the music, so they are edited to avoid music rights issues. There were other series releases that tried to put music back in, but a show like WKRP never got all the music restored, but most of it was. I know it’s a complex issue and huge costs associated with it.

Star Trek The Original Series had one song in one episode and back in the olden days of video tape and laser disc, Goodnight Sweetheart and the associated melody was replaced with generic music in The City on the Edge of Forever. But the 1999 DVD release of Star Trek TOS did have Goodnight Sweetheart restored. I remember with fanfare how proud Paramount was at the time to have been able to acquire the rights to the song and melody for the epiosode. It seems the music rights transferred to the Blu ray release too. I’ve not seen City on streaming, but I assume that has the song too.

So I’m wondering, it seems in the case of Goodnight Sweetheart, Paramount at the time must have made a sweetheart deal to retain the rights in perpetuity if they’ve kept the song in the Blu ray release too. It must have been a lot easier too as it’s just one pop song in the entire series. I hope it’s there if there is another format release. It was a different time then too and different people running the studio who supported Star Trek. For Star Trek TOS fans and the series itself, it’s been wonderful we have the series intact. Well, I know there’s stuff we’d like such as the titles music used in early episodes and the different Shatner narration, and the mono track is not perfect as it was on broadcast night and syndication copies in the 1970’s, but for the big stuff, it’s all there.

 

[ScottRE]

From what I understand, after the song is removed for the main VHS releases it ended up on the DVDs accidentally. And then Paramount turned around and paid for the rights after the fact. And now we have it. But somebody out there can correct me if I'm wrong.

It was only removed for a Home video, as I recall. The broadcast versions had the song. Which is probably how it ended up on DVD accidentally.

 

[Wiseguy]

"A Piece of the Action" is my mom's favorite episode and I enjoy it, too.

Years ago I took VHS releases of The Cage (all-color version) and The Menagerie,
transferred it to my computer and edited it all together to make a 1:45:45 presentation.
I removed all Part 1, Part 2 and 'to be concluded' notices. I replaced the episode titles with
generic Enterprise flybys and displayed the title "The Menagerie" in the opening credits
using a copy of the original opening and replacing the "Created by Gene Roddenberry" credit
with the title. I took the music which ended Part 1 (after the original to be concluded notice)
and dubbed it over the new end (after Kirk says lock him up) which ended with a fade out right
before the "to be concluded" notice.

I also kept the scenes from Part 1 since it involved a Captain's (Personal) Log but removed the
scenes from the court-martial and again replaced the new footage with a generic flyby with the
log dubbed over it (with the interrogation dialogue removed). I tweaked a few things
(like adding an intertcom call whistle before Mendez says "Mendez here, what is it?"
which wasn't in the original) and adding Part 1 production credits not seen at the end of Part 2
superimposed over the existing Part 2 credits. The closing credits and theme music were extended
to include most freeze frames seen at the end of the two parts and credited all actors with at
least a line of dialogue (including the grunting alien) and now ran a total of 1:25.

Some dialogue heard in the original Cage but not heard in Part 2 was also dubbed over the
appropriate scene (such as Spock saying "Check the circuits...can't be the screen then" and the
navigator saying "Could be these meteorites.") There were also some problems like not being able to
reproduce the shape of the hearing room viewing screen so just used a rectangle for some added scenes.

However some bad writing could not be easily corrected like how Spock knew when Miss Piper would
turn her head so he could kidnap Pike unseen, why Spock referred to the mission on Rigel VII (where
three people including Pike's yeoman were killed and seven others were injured (including Spock
himself who was still limping after arriving at Talos IV)) as a "routine patrol." Also,
the navigator informing Pike on the bridge of the warp speed using a hand signal and Pike being
transported to Talos IV at the end much too quickly. (Note also that McCoy and Scotty walk off
with Pike at the end of Part 1 and never return!) All in all, I think it turned out pretty
good, if I do say so myself, giving the limitations of a VHS picture and home computer editing.

 

[Wiseguy]

I had a quesrion in mind because of the recent The Odd Couple and Gomer Pyle blu ray releases. CBS Paramount did not restore those series with all the music, so they are edited to avoid music rights issues. There were other series releases that tried to put music back in, but a show like WKRP never got all the music restored, but most of it was. I know it’s a complex issue and huge costs associated with it.

Star Trek The Original Series had one song in one episode and back in the olden days of video tape and laser disc, Goodnight Sweetheart and the associated melody was replaced with generic music in The City on the Edge of Forever. But the 1999 DVD release of Star Trek TOS did have Goodnight Sweetheart restored. I remember with fanfare how proud Paramount was at the time to have been able to acquire the rights to the song and melody for the epiosode. It seems the music rights transferred to the Blu ray release too. I’ve not seen City on streaming, but I assume that has the song too.

So I’m wondering, it seems in the case of Goodnight Sweetheart, Paramount at the time must have made a sweetheart deal to retain the rights in perpetuity if they’ve kept the song in the Blu ray release too. It must have been a lot easier too as it’s just one pop song in the entire series. I hope it’s there if there is another format release. It was a different time then too and different people running the studio who supported Star Trek. For Star Trek TOS fans and the series itself, it’s been wonderful we have the series intact. Well, I know there’s stuff we’d like such as the titles music used in early episodes and the different Shatner narration, and the mono track is not perfect as it was on broadcast night and syndication copies in the 1970’s, but for the big stuff, it’s all there.

I still have a copy of that VHS release. The changed song ruined the episode.

 

[Nelson Au]

From what I understand, after the song is removed for the main VHS releases it ended up on the DVDs accidentally. And then Paramount turned around and paid for the rights after the fact. And now we have it. But somebody out there can correct me if I'm wrong.

It was only removed for a Home video, as I recall. The broadcast versions had the song. Which is probably how it ended up on DVD accidentally.

Hi Scott- I had not heard that story before, that the song was accidentally left in the DVD and that Paramount turned around and paid the license for the song. At the time of the first DVD releases, I remember reading somewhere that a Paramount spokesman pointed out how exciting it was that Paramount was able to restore the song so the episode is as originally broadcast. It sounded like a point of pride that the license was taken care of.

i don’t see that story discussed on Memory Alpha, but the Wikipedia entry for City on the Edge of Forever does discuss the story you related. Interesting! It was an accident.

As an aside, it’s interesting to read that part of what Fred Steiner scored for the episode was rejected, but it’s great to have the rejected tracks on the LaLaLand complete Star Trek soundtrack set.

Erich, totally agree, that re-scored music on the VHS and laserdisc is terrible and totally ruined the episode. I still have the VHS and laserdisc.

 

[Harry-N]

Though I had both VHS and LaserDisc originals of "City...", I was lucky enough to have always gotten copies with "Goodnight Sweetheart" intact. In fact, I think someone here may have sent me one of the altered versions, jut so I could hear the change.

 

[KPmusmag]

Interesting. I did not know there was ever a laserdisc with the correct music. I did know that there was an early VHS release that was correct.

I had never been so excited to buy a laserdisc and then I was SO disappointed. The "new" song is not exactly a bad song, but it is insipid sounding and just not...right. In addition, the transition to the dramatic underscore as Spock watches the tricorder screen does not have the impact of the original because they had to finesse the transition.

If anyone needs a reminder of the pain, here it is, from my laserdisc which I still have. LOL (This clip is an establishing shot and then Kirk and Edith's stroll and the transition.)

City - replaced music

 

[Nelson Au]

Thanks Kevin for posting that clip. I’ve stricken that replacement song from my memory. I had forgotten how bad it is just because it wasn’t what we remember and how high the sound level was on it. But there is other music that was changed that messed up the effect of other scenes. It wasn’t until I got the La La Land Star Trek TOS Complete Scores that I realized that Fred Steiner actually uses the song’s melody to construct some of his score. Then I realized why so much music was changed.

I’m so glad we have the correct music on the DVD and Blu ray release.

 

[Nelson Au]

Years ago I took VHS releases of The Cage (all-color version) and The Menagerie,
transferred it to my computer and edited it all together to make a 1:45:45 presentation.
I removed all Part 1, Part 2 and 'to be concluded' notices. I replaced the episode titles with
generic Enterprise flybys and displayed the title "The Menagerie" in the opening credits
using a copy of the original opening and replacing the "Created by Gene Roddenberry" credit
with the title. I took the music which ended Part 1 (after the original to be concluded notice)
and dubbed it over the new end (after Kirk says lock him up) which ended with a fade out right
before the "to be concluded" notice.

I also kept the scenes from Part 1 since it involved a Captain's (Personal) Log but removed the
scenes from the court-martial and again replaced the new footage with a generic flyby with the
log dubbed over it (with the interrogation dialogue removed). I tweaked a few things
(like adding an intertcom call whistle before Mendez says "Mendez here, what is it?"
which wasn't in the original) and adding Part 1 production credits not seen at the end of Part 2
superimposed over the existing Part 2 credits. The closing credits and theme music were extended
to include most freeze frames seen at the end of the two parts and credited all actors with at
least a line of dialogue (including the grunting alien) and now ran a total of 1:25.

Some dialogue heard in the original Cage but not heard in Part 2 was also dubbed over the
appropriate scene (such as Spock saying "Check the circuits...can't be the screen then" and the
navigator saying "Could be these meteorites.") There were also some problems like not being able to
reproduce the shape of the hearing room viewing screen so just used a rectangle for some added scenes.

However some bad writing could not be easily corrected like how Spock knew when Miss Piper would
turn her head so he could kidnap Pike unseen, why Spock referred to the mission on Rigel VII (where
three people including Pike's yeoman were killed and seven others were injured (including Spock
himself who was still limping after arriving at Talos IV)) as a "routine patrol." Also,
the navigator informing Pike on the bridge of the warp speed using a hand signal and Pike being
transported to Talos IV at the end much too quickly. (Note also that McCoy and Scotty walk off
with Pike at the end of Part 1 and never return!) All in all, I think it turned out pretty
good, if I do say so myself, giving the limitations of a VHS picture and home computer editing.

Erich, i had to re-read your post to fully understand what you did, that sounds like quite an effort! And an interesting alternate way to watch both The Cage and The Menagerie together.

 

[Harry-N]

I did not know there was ever a laserdisc with the correct music.

Now that you say that and I think more on it, I never had an LD of that title. Sorry for my misinformation. What I DID have was two different VHS copies. One was from the very early release through Fotomat. They sold those off when they got out of the tape rental business.

Then the numbered "transporter" covers came out and I once again bought "City..."

Both of those had the original, correct music. Then when I got into the DVD era, it of course was corrected, so I never heard the awful replacement stuff until someone kindly sent me a sample - just for curiosity.

 

[Jack P]

Re: "A Piece Of The Action." Anyone ever notice that James Doohan does the voice of that radio DJ ("Brought to you by Bang-Bang!")?