Scott Atwell Star Trek Discussion thread (Series and Films) (4 Viewers)

[Neil S. Bulk]

I have! What do I win?

 

[ScottRE]

I have! What do I win?

A copy of any Star Trek score you don't have.

 

[Nelson Au]

I still have the VHS tape of City on the Edge of Forever and the music was changed on that as well as my laserdisc copy. If I had a working VHs player, I might test that tape to confirm. But I’d rather not risk it. I never had any of the earlier Fotomat or other tape releases.

 

[Nelson Au]

After all this discussion of City on the Edge of Forever, I did a special viewing of it tonight. I save this episode from too many viewings, I know it by heart, but it’s always good to give it time between viewings. I might gleam a new aspect of the episode. And I did have a new perspective on it, I imagine others have had this thought.

Edith is supposed to die ina traffic accident, Spock sees this in a newspaper obituary. But given how Edith suspects something with Kirk, Spock and then suddenly McCoy and her seeing the three joyfully finding each other, she is so distracted, she doesn’t see the truck coming. So was Kirk Spock and McCoy supposed to be there for this to happen? Probably not, it was just a chance coincidence that caused the accident to happen this way.

It was really good to see this episode again. You can really feel the pain in Kirk anfter Edith dies. And it was interesting to watch Edith’s reactions to Kirk and Spock. And I had done some reading up on it again as I hadn’t read the Memory Alpha entry on it. I did not know that the scene when the Rodent is caught by McCoy was filmed in a side alley at Paramount because they ran out of time at 40 Acres.

Everyone knows that Harlan Ellison went to war against Gene Roddenberry for re-writing his script, I’ve read it in the book he published years ago. I didn’t particularly like it as it wasn’t portraying the characters right and Starfleet officers would not be abusing drugs. I had not realized though that it was DC Fontana’s work before Roddenberry did a final polish.

This is still a top episode! Well done be everyone. A solid episode!

I also discovered that there was a UK TV series called Goodnight Sweetheart from the 1990’s. It’s about a hapless TV repairman who is doing his job and discovers a time portal that allows him to pass into the past and back to the present day. He lives a double-life this way, in the past of the 1940’s and present. Sounds interesting.

 

[Nelson Au]

Re: "A Piece Of The Action." Anyone ever notice that James Doohan does the voice of that radio DJ ("Brought to you by Bang-Bang!")?

I just watched A Piece of the Action earlier this week. I never made that connection that Doohan did the voice. But makes perfect sense as he did so much radio in Canada. The voice was so different.

And I noticed that John Harmon was the Small Fry and the Rodent on City on the Edge of Forever!

 

[B-ROLL]

After all this discussion of City on the Edge of Forever, I did a special viewing of it tonight. I save this episode from too many viewings, I know it by heart, but it’s always good to give it time between viewings. I might gleam a new aspect of the episode. And I did have a new perspective on it, I imagine others have had this thought.

Edith is supposed to die ina traffic accident, Spock sees this in a newspaper obituary. But given how Edith suspects something with Kirk, Spock and then suddenly McCoy and her seeing the three joyfully finding each other, she is so distracted, she doesn’t see the truck coming. So was Kirk Spock and McCoy supposed to be there for this to happen? Probably not, it was just a chance coincidence that caused the accident to happen this way.

It was really good to see this episode again. You can really feel the pain in Kirk anfter Edith dies. And it was interesting to watch Edith’s reactions to Kirk and Spock. And I had done some reading up on it again as I hadn’t read the Memory Alpha entry on it. I did not know that the scene when the Rodent is caught by McCoy was filmed in a side alley at Paramount because they ran out of time at 40 Acres.

Everyone knows that Harlan Ellison went to war against Gene Roddenberry for re-writing his script, I’ve read it in the book he published years ago. I didn’t particularly like it as it wasn’t portraying the characters right and Starfleet officers would not be abusing drugs. I had not realized though that it was DC Fontana’s work before Roddenberry did a final polish.

This is still a top episode! Well done be everyone. A solid episode!

I also discovered that there was a UK TV series called Goodnight Sweetheart from the 1990’s. It’s about a hapless TV repairman who is doing his job and discovers a time portal that allows him to pass into the past and back to the present day. He lives a double-life this way, in the past of the 1940’s and present. Sounds interesting.

There's also a UK show Who's timeandspaceship looks like a Police Call Box ... You might want to check it out ...

....

 

[ScottRE]

I still have the VHS tape of City on the Edge of Forever and the music was changed on that as well as my laserdisc copy. If I had a working VHs player, I might test that tape to confirm. But I’d rather not risk it. I never had any of the earlier Fotomat or other tape releases.

I can confirm the music was altered in the Paramount single episode releases (the transporter picture cases and the later blue cases), the Columbia House/CBS Video subscription release and the Laserdiscs. I never had the Fotomat or the Paramount Home Video's Television Classic's volume which reportedly did retain the original music.

Everyone knows that Harlan Ellison went to war against Gene Roddenberry for re-writing his script, I’ve read it in the book he published years ago. I didn’t particularly like it as it wasn’t portraying the characters right and Starfleet officers would not be abusing drugs. I had not realized though that it was DC Fontana’s work before Roddenberry did a final polish.

As it has been said I'm sure by countless others, if Ellison's original vision was an episode of The Outer Limits, it would be perfect. It's beautifully written. It's poetic and tragic. But it's just not right for format series TV. Regardless of what other lofty aspirations there may or may not have been for our favorite show, the fact is Star Trek was a weekly adventure series with a specific format and producers who had their own ideas of how the characters should act. And, I hate to say this because everyone loves this episode, the relationship between Edith and Kirk wasn't built up nearly enough to justify Kirk sacrificing the timeline and his crew. It isn't built up much more in the final version either, so this episode doesn't land with me like it does with other fans. TBH, this should have been a two part episode. There are a lot of great dramatic points to cover. They could have tossed Operation: Annihilate and expanded City, giving Kirk and Edit's relationship a chance to grow, use the expanded the budget to make NYC seem more authentic and less like Mayberry, get into what it means for Spock trying to stay safe in 1930 Earth, show more of what McCoy was going through and so on. The story is too big for one episode. Thank Zod for the actors who really made this work. Shatner is at his best in this episode and he and Joan Collins have great chemistry. Her character just needed some fleshing out, we know nothing about her other than she has the same outlook on humanity as Gene Roddenberry.

I just watched A Piece of the Action earlier this week. I never made that connection that Doohan did the voice. But makes perfect sense as he did so much radio in Canada. The voice was so different.

And I noticed that John Harmon was the Small Fry and the Rodent on City on the Edge of Forever!

Doohan did a lot of voiceover work throughout the series, some were more invisible than others. But you can hear him as Commodore Enright in The Ultimate Computer, one of the NASA radio voices in Assignment: Earth and, of course, Sargon in Return to Tomorrow.

Thanks to the Fotonovels, I remember discovering that as a kid because I had most of them as they came out

I've watched this series and devoured all the reference material I could for the last 53 years, but I still get a smile when fans discover this stuff for the first time. Those discoveries are far too seldom for me these days, but thanks to others who accessed the files and production materials, like our own @Neil S. Bulk and writers such as Jeff Bond and the fabulous researcher/fans at Fact Trek, I still learn a few things here and there. I kind of envy your discoveries, Nelson.

 

[Nelson Au]

Scott, I hate to reveal my age, but I think we’ve been Star Trek fans nearly as long; I’m not sure when I consciously became a fan but it could one or three years after you. Though I was certainly aware of Star Trek even as a little kid. i tended to focus on specific areas. I loved the stories and characters and slowly learned of the messages of hope for a better future and optimism that I liked. I was a hardware guy too so I tended to also focus on the props as they fascinated me. They were such innovative designs compared to what other science fiction TV was doing at the time. It definitely influenced my choice for profession as a Product designer. That said, I still often look at the props and sets when I watch the series. I love discovering that found objects were also used on Star Trek like the hand props for things like the salt shakers and coffee carafe, so it’s been fun discovering those and trying to collect those. Did you know Balok’s controller was an outdoor pottery piece from 1951 used for outdoor lighting? But yes, in recent years, I am making new discoveries or realizations of things I tended to not notice. So it’s great to look at other facets of Star Trek.

And yes, it’s great to have other fans in the business here like Neil. I’ve seen Jeff Bond’s work too and photos of him at Vazquez Rocks wearing the red shirt.

I don’t spend a lot of time on bulletin boards, so if thats where it was discussed that Ellison’s original story would have fit better on The Outer Limits, that’s a new one to me! I’d have to re-read the story to defamiliarize myself with it. Ellison did do the classics Demon with a Glass Hand and Soldier. Both great stories with that time element involved.

 

[Sam Favate]

When I bought the VHS copy of City in 1990, I honestly didn’t remember the original music. It had been several years since I’d seen it. But City still resonated and was my favorite episode. Of course, I was glad to see the music restored eventually, and I wouldn’t watch or listen any other way now.

I’ve read Ellison’s original story, and it’s very good. I’d even say it’s great. But fitting it into Star Trek, I think the changes made for the episode we all know were appropriate. If I had been in that position, I’d like to think I would have made the same changes.

Someone, somewhere thirty years ago said we should have had a glimpse of Edith in Kirk’s world in the Nexus, that she should have been the woman in his life instead of Antonia. I’m not sure how it would have played narratively with the Generations script, but it would have been a powerful moment.

 

[Nelson Au]

There's also a UK show Who's timeandspaceship looks like a Police Call Box ... You might want to check it out ...

....

I am aware of Who owns that Call Box. I never got into that show. But I get how it’s got a huge fan base!

 

[ScottRE]

Someone, somewhere thirty years ago said we should have had a glimpse of Edith in Kirk’s world in the Nexus, that she should have been the woman in his life instead of Antonia. I’m not sure how it would have played narratively with the Generations script, but it would have been a powerful moment.

A lot of fans seem to feel that way, but honestly, Kirk had like a dozen women after Edith, even got married and conceived a kid before she died. I know that's the nature of episodic TV, but I still felt Kirk/Kirok's relationship with Miramanee was more "real" than Edith because we saw it grow. Sadly, The Paradise Syndrome isn't nearly of the same episode and Sabrina Scharf isn't Joan Collins. And Shatner was playing it much more broadly that week.

My feeling for Generations was that it should have been Carol Marcus and David. That was more recent in the movie audience's mind and David especially would resonate since they used his death as a prime motivator the film just prior. They could still keep them in the distance since Merritt Butrick had already passed. Just change the name from Antonia to Carol, have Bibi Besch (who was still with us) do the voice from upstairs, put a young man next to her on a horse, and just have Picard ask who he is. Shatner could have really tugged at the heart strings with:

"That's David....he was my son." The look on his face and tone of voice conveys the rest. And it also ties into the theme of family loss shared between Picard and Soren.

But that's just me.

 

[Harry-N]

I can confirm the music was altered in the Paramount single episode releases (the transporter picture cases...)

And I can confirm that I had one of those that contained the "Goodnight Sweetheart" music. Though my memory failed me regarding having a LaserDisc, I surely did have one of those VHS tapes with the transporter background, and it was an episode I watched often. Always had "Goodnight Sweetheart".

I was so confused when I got on the Internet and read so many rants about replaced music, when it all sounded original to me.

Ah well, it all worked out anyway. I just wish I'd hung onto THAT VHS tape.

 

[ScottRE]

And I can confirm that I had one of those that contained the "Goodnight Sweetheart" music. Though my memory failed me regarding having a LaserDisc, I surely did have one of those VHS tapes with the transporter background, and it was an episode I watched often. Always had "Goodnight Sweetheart".
View attachment 215682

I was so confused when I got on the Internet and read so many rants about replaced music, when it all sounded original to me.

Ah well, it all worked out anyway. I just wish I'd hung onto THAT VHS tape.

Yes, I remember you mentioning that. You must've been a lucky outlier. All of the copies I have and have ever had on VHS and laser disk had the replacement music. You didn't have to feel our pain.

 

[Jack P]

As it has been said I'm sure by countless others, if Ellison's original vision was an episode of The Outer Limits, it would be perfect. It's beautifully written. It's poetic and tragic. But it's just not right for format series TV. Regardless of what other lofty aspirations there may or may not have been for our favorite show, the fact is Star Trek was a weekly adventure series with a specific format and producers who had their own ideas of how the characters should act. And, I hate to say this because everyone loves this episode, the relationship between Edith and Kirk wasn't built up nearly enough to justify Kirk sacrificing the timeline and his crew. It isn't built up much more in the final version either, so this episode doesn't land with me like it does with other fans. TBH, this should have been a two part episode. There are a lot of great dramatic points to cover. They could have tossed Operation: Annihilate and expanded City, giving Kirk and Edit's relationship a chance to grow, use the expanded the budget to make NYC seem more authentic and less like Mayberry, get into what it means for Spock trying to stay safe in 1930 Earth, show more of what McCoy was going through and so on. The story is too big for one episode. Thank Zod for the actors who really made this work. Shatner is at his best in this episode and he and Joan Collins have great chemistry. Her character just needed some fleshing out, we know nothing about her other than she has the same outlook on humanity as Gene Roddenberry.

I have always had zero patience with Ellison's angry-man crusade over what happened with "City" especially the way he tried to basically have his cake and eat it too by taking the plaudits over writing what most fans called the best episode ever of Trek but at the same time acting like what he wrote had been ruined etc. and that his original script was the greatest piece of writing ever when honestly it is a piece of absolutely *bad* TV writing IMO. As you point out Scott, the whole Kirk-Edith relationship is not well-developed because Edith doesn't show up until Act 3 in Ellison's script! Instead, Ellison overcomplicates the plot with the Beckwith sidebar which frankly isn't interesting at all and is just a giant distraction (and Ellison also I would note does something no TV writer should ever do by giving us two characters with similar sounding last-names, BECK-with and Le-BECQUE, which over-the-air would have sounded like Le-BECK). Having McCoy, a series regular be the focal point that drives the plot makes a lot more sense for a TV series and lets us concentrate on the main point.

The fact that Ellison was also graceless regarding the contributions of everyone else to that episode is another thing I hold against him. He acted wounded and offended that Joan Collins couldn't accurately remember details of the script, as if she was supposed to be expert on something that was just a job for her during one week of her life at the time (and Joan has by her admission never even watched the episode I think; too often we need to remember that the actors who regard these shows as work-related drudgery so they can earn a living are not going to have a fan-type attitude about them) so he ripped her and wouldn't give her any credit for the performance she did. No, everything always began with Harlan's writing which was flawless, perfect and without sin so no one had the right to cast stones at it.

I also I will note have another reason for hating Ellison in that after spending a lifetime of ranting about other people making changes to someone's original work, he then hypocritically threw his vaunted standards out the window when it came to "Battlestar Galactica" just because of his hate-filled grudge against Glen Larson. If ever a guy deserved to get a rap in the mouth, it was him.

 

[jayembee]

I’ve read Ellison’s original story, and it’s very good. I’d even say it’s great. But fitting it into Star Trek, I think the changes made for the episode we all know were appropriate. If I had been in that position, I’d like to think I would have made the same changes.

It just wasn't in Kirk's character to sacrifice an entire history for one person, no matter how much he may have loved her. I respect Ellison's reasoning for his writing it the way he did, as his point was that Edith was the one woman Kirk loved enough to shirk his duty, but still...

Maybe it was Shatner's acting at fault, but I wasn't convinced that he loved Edith that much.

 

[ScottRE]

Maybe it was Shatner's acting at fault, but I wasn't convinced that he loved Edith that much.

Shatner was fine, but even in the aired version, they didn't give him a lot to work with. Other than her looks and the fact that she seemed to have "gifted insight" what was so special about her? WHY did he fall in love? I couldn't even tell if she felt the same. If Kirk didn't let her die at the end, would this episode rate as highly? This episode, like Space Seed, has a legend that I find frankly overrated. The climax of City makes it was it is and The Wrath of Khan elevated Space Seed in the end.

I love the concept, even with the well done changes, there's too much to satisfactorily cram into a single hour.

Strictly my opinion, mind you, but The City on the Edge of Forever is no more Star Trek's greatest episode than Spock's Brain is its worst. But, well, popularity wins. I still feel episodes like Balance of Terror, Mirror Mirror and Journey to Babel rank higher than both. Even Amok Time.

Bit I don't rank The Voyage Home all that highly on the list of films either, so what do I know?

I don’t spend a lot of time on bulletin boards, so if thats where it was discussed that Ellison’s original story would have fit better on The Outer Limits, that’s a new one to me! I’d have to re-read the story to defamiliarize myself with it. Ellison did do the classics Demon with a Glass Hand and Soldier. Both great stories with that time element involved.

Nah the specific series mention is mostly me, but the general feeling from - I think - the Solow/Justman Inside Star Trek: The Real Story is that it would have made a great anthology episode in general. But I don't have the book anymore.

 

[Nelson Au]

Scott- Interesting to read your perception of The City on the Edge of Forever. And Space Seed.

Maybe I’m the type of person where the love story in City works. From the first moment, I always felt Kirk was immediately smitten by her when she says; ”A lie is a poor way to say hello. It’s not that cold outside.” After Edith tells Kirk and Spock she suspects something about them in the cellar after she discovers Spock picked the lock of the tool chest, and he walks her home, I saw that scene as cementing the connection between Kirk and Edith. So for me, I definitely feel they were in love and it was tragic how history had to go.

On Space Seed, I try to remember what life was like before The Wrath of Khan. My memory as a young fan was that it was a good episode. What stood out was the fight between Kirk and Khan and I always go back to the scene when Kirk pulls the rod from the engineering console to defeat Khan with. It was an interesting ending with Spock’s line of someday seeing what happens to Khan. I remember that. It had as an indelible imagery of Khan and his men and women as the Romulan Commander and the Centurion and the Doomsday Machine and the giant single cell organism. And the gangsters of Iotia and Skip Homier as a Nazi and Kirk and Spock fighting on Vulcan is strong imagery that stands out. So many more that I’ve not mentioned too. So Khan did stand out among the other things that stood out. But for sure, The Wrath of Khan elevated Space Seed.

And thanks for clarifying the original Ellison City script was better suited to an Anthology series.

 

[jayembee]

Bit I don't rank The Voyage Home all that highly on the list of films either, so what do I know?

I don't rank it highly, either. But I seem to have different opinions on the movies than most people do.

That said, I do think "City" is the best TOS episode. Not that I don't think others aren't at roughly the same quantum level. But if there was a "Desert Island Disc" thing where one only got to choose one episode from select TV shows, "City" would be my TOS choice.

 

[Nelson Au]

Not to pile on more, I had to dig out my VHS copy of City on the Edge of Forever. Fun to look back on that as the medium we had to view Star Trek at home.

 

[jayembee]

But for sure, The Wrath of Khan elevated Space Seed.

I suppose it did. But being an old fart who (a) watched TOS during its original broadcast, and (b) became part of SF fandom (though not specifically ST fandom) not long after TOS ended, I can say that "Space Seed" was a highly-regarded episode well before TWOK, and the fan interest level in that movie was because of fond memories of the episode.

While the fact is that that movie is oft-regarded as the best of the Trek films, it's hard to say what the reaction of fans would've been to the film if "Space Seed" hadn't been so liked by fans. It probably would've still been well-liked because it's such a grand movie, but that it was about a rematch with Khan had a lot to do with it, methinks.

(As an aside, off your comment about the Kirk/Khan fight, one of the highlights for me in Star Trek Into Darkness was that we got to see a fight between Spock and Khan, which I always felt was missing from "Space Seed". The reason for it missing from the episode is clear, but I always felt cheated that it was Kirk who fought Khan instead of the more evenly-matched Spock.)