Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022) (1 Viewer)

[Jake Lipson]

Honestly, while Marvel will be doing well when the movies resume, they don't have any slam dunks on the schedule that will be doing Avengers numbers for a while.

I think that Marvel is going to have a hard time replicating the success of Phases 1-3 in Phase 4 and beyond. A very hard time.

They don't need to be doing Avengers numbers right out of the gate to be profitable. With the exception of Iron Man, the Phase 1 films were not huge. They put in the work and built the brand over time, and were rewarded handsomely for their patience. They did it once. They can do it again.

I would not bet against Marvel at this point. So many of the characters they started with were not household names until the movies were great and made them household names. Back in 2014, everyone thought Guardians of the Galaxy was a big risk because no one knew who they were, and it opened with $93 million before becoming the #3 movie of the year.

If the movies Marvel currently has in production are good, they'll break through and connect. If they're not, they won't. But I have no reason to believe they won't be good, so I think the studio will be fine. I know I am looking forward to seeing what Marvel has in store the next time it is safe for me to attend one of their movies in the theater. If any of their releases hit theaters before it's safe, they will be guaranteed blind buys for me when the Blu-rays arrive. I have complete faith in what they're doing.

I think that figuring out a satisfying path forward for Black Panther without Boseman is the most significant challenge to hit Phase 4 to date. I don't see any reason to think that they will have trouble introducing new franchises effectively and profitably. They've done that part before.

 

[TravisR]

I think that Marvel is going to have a hard time replicating the success of Phases 1-3 in Phase 4 and beyond. A very hard time.

In the past decade or so, audiences have made it very clear that they want the familiar over and over and over so while the Marvel movies might not hit the heights of the last Avengers, they'll still make plenty of money.

 

[dpippel]

Oh, I agree that they'll make money, which isn't what I was really talking about. I'm saying that I don't think that they'll become part of the zeitgeist like the previous films pretty much have. Thor and Iron Man and Captain America and Spider-man are among the most popular comic book characters in history. Sorry, but Gilgamesh and Ajax and Ikaris will never reach their level of popularity.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Thor and Iron Man and Captain America and Spider-man are among the most popular comic book characters in history.

I don't read comics, and speaking purely as a fan of the movies, I was not aware of the stories of those first three characters you mentioned until the movies came out. I might have heard the names Iron Man and Captain America somewhere, but I didn't know anything about them. Then the movies were great, so now I do.

I think the audience has demonstrated their willingness to turn out for anything Marvel puts out. I don't expect that to stop. If the characters introduced In the next phase of films are as well-cast and richly drawn as the characters we already saw, the movies will continue to be culturally significant.

 

[The Obsolete Man]

Oh, I agree that they'll make money, which isn't what I was really talking about. I'm saying that I don't think that they'll become part of the zeitgeist like the previous films pretty much have. Thor and Iron Man and Captain America and Spider-man are among the most popular comic book characters in history. Sorry, but Gilgamesh and Ajax and Ikaris will never reach their level of popularity.

Until the films, Iron Man was a B-lister with a Sabbath song named after him, Thor was never much of a draw, and Captain America was probably more well known for Reb Brown or that bad 1990 movie than for anything in the comics after he punched Hitler in 1940. And if you want to talk about comics, remember, these are the names that were canceled in 1996 and given to the EXTREEEEEEMMMMEEEEEEE, Kewl Image guys because their sales sucked so badly. They've never been chart toppers, even though they may be well known.

And remember, no one knew who the Guardians of the Galaxy were until the film hit it big. I mean, if I'm calling Iron Man a comic book B-Lister, which he really was, the Guardians characters were somewhere below Z-list. We'd have to add new letters to describe how little anyone cared about their existence. Now, a tree and a talking raccoon are more famous than 90% of DC's characters.

All it takes is one good film. And they still have some good characters stored up. Ms. Marvel, the entire X line, a decent Fantastic Four movie and all their characters...

 

[Ejanss]

And remember, no one knew who the Guardians of the Galaxy were until the film hit it big.

Well, Rocket & Groot did have their share of cult fans from the print comic, but--unlike the non-reader press-analyst articles we've read for the last six years--Guardians wasn't made because it was popular, or to "prove they could do an obscure title". It was obscure, and became popular, but that wasn't the reason.
It was made because this was the point in Phase II where somebody had to explain why everyone in Phase I was fighting over glowing gems, give the backstory exposition about the Infinity Gauntlet, and introduce Thanos as an upcoming villain in the next issues, as but one part of the ultimate strategic Big Picture.
And, as it turns out, the only other people at the time who knew about Thanos and the Gauntlet were the Silver Surfer and Fantastic Four...Both still under contract to Fox. (Thus most of the big hoo-hah over Disney buying Fox not being Sound of Music, but "Do they have the Fantastic Four now??")

Point being, that's what Marvel is missing, that made Phases I-III such "events", and that every other studio nearly destroyed themselves trying to copy--the Ultimate Big Picture. MCU's throwing around ideas, to stick to the wall, like alien impostors in Captain Marvel, or B-team New Avengers, or alternate-reality Multiverses in Dr. Strange 2 where they can just ignore previous-movie canon, but they don't have ONE idea yet.
When Nick Fury showed up at the end of Iron Man, he didn't have to open his mouth, before all the fans in the audience knew--Fury talking to Stark meant the Avengers, the Avengers meant Captain America and Thor (and Black Panther and Ant-Man), and all of the Avengers meant fighting Thanos.
That's what fifty years of the print comic created, the rest right now is just being made up or scraped off the barrel.

 

[TravisR]

Until the films, Iron Man was a B-lister with a Sabbath song named after him...

That's still the coolest thing about Iron Man.

...Thor was never much of a draw, and Captain America was probably more well known for Reb Brown or that bad 1990 movie than for anything in the comics after he punched Hitler in 1940.

I think that, outside of Spider-Man, pretty much all the silver age Marvel characters were not particularly popular for the past few decades until the movies. Every now and then, a popular writer or artist would give one of those characters' books a boost but outside of that, not too many people cared what Ant-Man or The Hulk was doing. The Ultimate universe reboot at the turn of the century did give the characters a boost by modernizing them and, more importantly, they ended up setting the template for the movies. As much of a debt that the movies owe the comics, the comics also owe the movies a lot for what Marvel does with their comics today and rejuvenating sales on stagnant characters.

 

[Jeff Cooper]

If they do go with recasting the role, I think Chiwetel Ejiofor would be a great choice.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Chiwetel Ejiofor

Ejiofor is already in the MCU as Mordo from Doctor Strange and expected to return for that sequel. They can't use him again in a different role because his first one is too significant.

 

[Jake Lipson]

In Ryan Coogler's remembrance of Boseman, he said that he found out about Boseman's illness when his death was announced and that he was already writing the sequel for Boseman to be in. This should put to rest the theory from some of us that anyone at Marvel knew about this. It means that Coogler will have to decide whether he wants to make that script without Boseman, or if he wants to throw it out and start from scratch without the character. I am fine with whichever way Coogler wants to go. That being said, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he decides against recasting Boseman and comes up with something else.

 

[Malcolm R]

Interesting, and rather surprising. Obviously Boseman had bigger things to worry about, but I'm kind of shocked he apparently didn't give any thought to how the legacy of BP, and the cultural importance of the role, should move on without him. Especially considering Coogler's article where Boseman was so invested in the character and how he should be portrayed:

https://deadline.com/2020/08/black-...-collaborators-from-his-suffering-1203027062/

How about Mahershala Ali? He has some Marvel experience from TV's Luke Cage.

 

[Jake Lipson]

How about Mahershala Ali? He has some Marvel experience from TV's Luke Cage.

They've already announced him as the MCU Blade.

 

[Joe Wong]

It's helpful that Black Panther has already been established as a mantle that is passed from one warrior to the next, rather than associated with one singular secret identity.

It's not helpful that T'Challa nearly died in Black Panther, actually did die in Infinity War, and was only just resurrected at the end of Endgame. It seems too soon for T'Challa to die again.

My personal gut reaction at this moment in time is that they should rebuild the franchise around Letitia Wright, with Shuri taking on the mantle of Black Panther. It seems to me the only way you can deal with Chadwick Boseman's premature death, and T'Challa's premature death, is to make the Black Panther sequel all about grieving that horrible and unexpected loss. Make the story about Shuri dealing with the loss of her brother, and finding a way to move forward from that. I think audiences will need to go on a similar emotional journey.

This is exactly the direction I think they should go, as well. Pass the BP mantle to Shuri, while simultaneously dealing with the loss of T'Challa, mirroring our collective grief with Boseman's passing. That could be a powerful arc, which the audience can identify and connect with. And then there's a new threat to deal with as well, which would test Shuri and the Wakandans.

This would honor Boseman's legacy as T'Challa, rather than be replaced with another actor.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Interesting, and rather surprising. Obviously Boseman had bigger things to worry about, but I'm kind of shocked he apparently didn't give any thought to how the legacy of BP, and the cultural importance of the role, should move on without him. Especially considering Coogler's article where Boseman was so invested in the character and how he should be portrayed:

https://deadline.com/2020/08/black-...-collaborators-from-his-suffering-1203027062/

How about Mahershala Ali? He has some Marvel experience from TV's Luke Cage.

I don't know, but when you're facing death at 43 years old, I'm not going to criticize how a person faced death and how much thought he gave to his legacy.

 

[Jake Lipson]

I'm kind of shocked he apparently didn't give any thought to how the legacy of BP, and the cultural importance of the role, should move on without him.

Boseman had cancer the entire time he was making Black Panther and the Avengers sequels. Depending on how long he had it before it was discovered in 2016, he might even have had it during the filming of Civil War. He did all of those, plus 21 Bridges and (I think) Marshall, while ill. Considering how physical the role is, that is just astonishing to me that he was able to pull it off as long as he did and still have people not notice. He looks so healthy and energetic and vital in the role. It can't have been easy for him to do, but he did it anyway, which was a great service to the fans.

I would absolutely not assume that he didn't think about the future of Black Panther. It is very possible that he simply thought he would be here and be able to do it. He had been able to do it before, so it's not an unreasonable expectation that he would be able to again. Or, if he deteriorated quicker than he thought he would, he trusted Coogler to find a way to carry it forward. Coogler is a smart filmmaker. He can figure this out.

There's a lot we don't know, and likely will not know, because Boseman chose his privacy, which is a choice he was entitled to make. Even if he did know, there's no way he could resign from the lead role in a movie like that without industry reporters snooping around to find out why. I have no issues with what he did or didn't do, because that was his choice. I would not for one minute believe that he was negligent in regard to the future of Black Panther.

There wouldn't be a future of Black Panther if he had not carried that role with such incredible talent, poise and grace in the first place. So I can only thank him for his service to the character and to the audience who loved it so much. The future will sort itself out in due course.

 

[Joe Wong]

Back in 2014, everyone thought Guardians of the Galaxy was a big risk because no one knew who they were, and it opened with $93 million before becoming the #3 movie of the year.

And also the rare feat of an August release (where the dregs of summer films tend to be placed) topping the domestic summer box office (ultimately, it also topped the domestic box office for the year). Not bad!

 

[Jake Lipson]

(ultimately, it also topped the domestic box office for the year).

Actually, no. It landed in third place behind #2 Mockingjay Part 1 and #1 American Sniper. This of course carries a little bit of an asterisk because American Sniper made like 99% of its money in 2015, but its limited release on a very small number of screens at the end of 2014 does qualify it for the 2014 chart.

 

[Joe Wong]

There wouldn't be a future of Black Panther if he had not carried that role with such incredible talent, poise and grace in the first place. So I can only thank him for his service to the character and to the audience who loved it so much. The future will sort itself out in due course.

Agreed!

The more I think about it, the more I prefer the "retire T'Challa" direction rather than replacing Boseman with another actor. Bosewick had made such a mark on the character over the course of 4 films it might be jarring to have him replaced by someone who not only looks different physically, but potentially performs differently as well.

I compare this to the replacement of Richard Harris as Dumbledore with Michael Gambon in the Harry Potter films. Obviously they had no choice but to replace him, since the character is still in the books. But there was a noticeable difference in the way Dumbledore came across when Gambon took over.

(edited to correct Gambon's name)

 

[Joe Wong]

Actually, no. It landed in third place behind #2 Mockingjay Part 1 and #1 American Sniper. This of course carries a little bit of an asterisk because American Sniper made like 99% of its money in 2015, but its limited release on a very small number of screens at the end of 2014 does qualify it for the 2014 chart.

Ah, I stand corrected. I haven't used BoxOfficeMojo in such a long time (due to COVID-19 and all the website changes) that when I selected 2014, it showed Guardians at the top and I didn't check if it was earnings based on calendar year or based on release date. Thank you!

 

[Sam Favate]

I agree that Boseman might very well have thought he'd be here to make the film. There are forms of colon cancer that can be extremely aggressive and cut a patient's time down dramatically. How anyone chooses to live with such a difficult illness is their business, and no one should be in the habit of debating it.

Everyone who worked with him sure seems to have loved him, so they're grieving now. Let's let them do so before we ramp up speculation on what Marvel will or should do. There will undoubtedly be a BP2; let's let time decide what form it will take. No one should be asking Marvel or Feige or Letitia or Coogler about it. They will make an announcement when they feel the time is right.